#126 Kelly Brown – Dogs, learning from man’s best friend

Learn more about man’s best friend and the behavioural science behind dog training with acclaimed dog trainer Kelly Brown.

Kelly shares how she put a hugely successful global career in oil and gas behind her to follow what was her true passion, working with dogs and their owners, and create a successful business for herself.

Kelly explains in detail the underlying philosophy behind her training methodology which is based on rewards-based reinforcement rather than punishment. It is as much about training the owners, and what is possible, as it is the dogs. She also provides some fascinating insights into the hard-wired nature within different breeds and how to work with, rather than against, this.

What becomes super clear from early on, is that there is so much to learn from Kelly not just about managing dogs but crossing over to children, friends and people around.

Kelly is super knowledgeable and she does a wonderful job of distilling all of her knowledge into an a easily approachable conversation.

Read Full Transcript

Bryn 

Learn more about man’s best friend and the behavioural science behind dog training with acclaimed dog trainer Kelly Brown. Kelly shares how she put a hugely successful global career in oil and gas behind her to follow what was her true passion, working with dogs and their owners and created a successful business for yourself around this. Kelly explains in detail the underlying philosophy behind her training methodology, which is based on rewards based reinforcement, rather than punishment. As you’ll find out, it’s as much as about training the owners and what is possible, then it is the dogs themselves. She also provides some fascinating insights into the hardwired nature within different breeds and how to work with rather than against this. What becomes super clear from early on is that there is so much to learn from Kelly, not just about managing dogs, but crossing over into how we deal with children, friends and people around us. Kelly is super knowledgeable and she does a one The full job of distilling all her knowledge into an easily approachable conversation. So enjoy, Kelly. Hello, and welcome back to wi rail. I’m your host, Bryn Edwards. Today we’re going to talk about man’s best friend and dog training and the behavioural science that sits behind it all with my guest, Kelly Brown.

 

Kelly Brown 

Kelly, welcome to the show. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. You’re very, very well.

 

Bryn 

So that’s a good solid Kiwi accent you’ve got there. Yeah, so one of the questions I always start by asking my guests is how they ended up being in Western Australia in Perth. So how did you come to be here?

 

Kelly Brown 

Yeah, sure. So that’s a long story. So I grew up in New Zealand. Yeah, I lived there until 2004. And then did my big away. So we started in London, then move up, overseas experience, right. Okay. Yep. So Yes, I started in London and then Scotland and then Vietnam, and then came to Perth for the first time. When I was working for Chevron, then over to Houston, and then back to New Zealand and back to Perth again. So huge round trip.

 

Bryn 

Super. And how long have you been here now?

 

Kelly Brown 

Since February last year, February last year, almost two years,

 

Bryn 

two years. And she’s now home or it can be home for the

 

Kelly Brown 

night. This is now home. The longest I’ve lived in a place is two years so we’re almost at two years. But no, this is home. Yeah. Um, so I’ve you know, lived in lots of different places. All with different pros and cons. But I think you know, having lived in Perth before it’s definitely my favourite place to have lived in. It’s got great people great weather. It’s got you know, great lifestyle. You know, safe so you Yeah, absolutely. And it’s just it’s so so, you know, I’ve lived in a lot of big cities, but this is a nice relaxing place to be. Yeah, definitely feel like that’s where I’m ready to be right now.

 

Bryn 

What did you know about why when you were growing up in New Zealand? Not a lot?

 

Kelly Brown 

No, I hadn’t really heard of it before. And the reason I moved here, you know, is because of Chevron. And initially, I wasn’t really that keen on moving here. Because I’d heard it’s too quiet. There’s nothing going on here. There’s nothing to do. But then when I got here, I realised it was Yeah, it was brilliant. I’d say loved it.

 

Bryn 

So yeah. So obviously, dogs, animals, dogs. Yes. I think and where does that where does the focus on dogs come from? Yeah, Kelly German is absolutely Jeff dogs when your kids at the moment.

 

Kelly Brown 

I’m so always loved animals right from when I was young. We had cats growing up and I did a horse riding and so took any opportunity I could to be involved with animals.

 

Kelly Brown 

But my initial path didn’t hit that way. It was always, you know, go to university get a degree, you know, get a job. Get a job. Well.

 

Kelly Brown 

Absolutely, yeah, that was sort of the path. You know, that I initially went down. But yes, it’s all right. Absolutely. But instead of in the back of my mind was I’d always wanted to do something with animals but just at that time, I didn’t know what it was.

 

 

It was that it was

 

Kelly Brown 

always there. Absolutely. And I did some horse training courses I had to train a horse and I had a horse in Scotland. And again, you know, absolutely love that and was looking at that as a as a career further down the track, but it’s quite a hard industry to get into if you’re not already in that space. And also because I was travelling around a lot as well. It’s difficult to own animals. When you always moving. Yeah. But then when I was in Houston, it’s actually volunteered at an Animal Rescue Centre was in Vietnam. So so it was involved that way. And then when I was living in Houston, my job was quite stressful and I needed a, in a bit of an outlet to be able to relax. So I went to an Animal Rescue Centre and started walking dogs. And they had a behaviour qualification that you could go through. So I was doing that on the side and my dog training qualification. So that was the first one. I got there. And then yeah, absolutely loved it just loved working with animals and what is

 

Bryn 

it about animals for calibra?

 

Kelly Brown 

So I think, first of all, I think a lot of animals we underestimate how smart they are. So I think just the enjoyment of working with them and just seeing them learn and seeing them go and you know, as they learn and grow they build confidence with That’s, you know, it’s really rewarding to be able to see that so changing their lives. But I think also the other side of that is the people side, which is changing people’s lives as well. Because, you know, I think once they start to see the, the potential and the dog or an animal, then that changes their relationship, which then you know, improves the lives of both of them. So yeah, sort of starting with the animal and then seeing what impact that has on the person and then seeing that relationship, build and grow and yet and then the impact that has on their life.

 

 

Yeah, yeah.

 

Bryn 

Dogs known as man’s best friend. What is it about dogs that make them our best friend? Yeah. Out of all the animals we could choose? Yeah, sky and have pets and make friends. Right?

 

Kelly Brown 

For sure. I think it’s the deep connection, you know, people have with animals and and it’s easy to get that deep connection quite quickly, you know, say? Yeah, with a dog and I think sometimes I only say clients, you know, maybe even once and clients dogs once, but just seeing that willingness of the dog to want to engage and want to learn and want to grow, I think. Yeah, that’s that’s probably what it is. It’s that instant, immediate, you know, immediate sort of deep connection that you can get from them.

 

Bryn 

Yeah. So in a minute, I’m going to ask you about, like the underlying methodology years and stuff, but first of all, I’m keen to know. So, so you mentioned before that you work for Chevron, that’s like myself. And so we do have sort of an overlapping story to some degree. But how does how do you go from working at Chevron, to now being

 

 

a full time job, China? Absolutely. Yeah. So See that?

 

Bryn 

What you said that there was an underlying trend to want to do something? Yes,

 

Kelly Brown 

absolutely. Yeah. Um, so my time with Chevron. You know, it’s amazing. I learned a lot. I had the opportunity to travel there. lot, travel was a big driver for me just, you know, living and working lots of different cultures. But with that came a lot of stress, stress from moving countries every two years, you know, and having to meet new people and get established. And then, you know, once you start to build that then moving another two years and you know that that’s quite difficult on your personal life. And that was really the path that I had with Chevron was in a development programme and just, you know, getting exposed to a lot of different roles in a lot of different cultures to work my way up. And I think that, yeah, it’s it’s hard because, you know, I kind of reached a point where I was starting to think more about my lifestyle rather than my career. And, you know, Chevron’s career for me was, you know, high stress fast paced, moving up quickly and moving countries and, yeah, what although that was great in the beginning, I reached a point where I just decided that it was more about You know, thinking about what I wanted personally out of life, which was to have a bit more of a relaxed lifestyle to be able to enjoy the places that I lived in fully, you know, to have a bit of consistency and longevity without that feeling of, you know, where am I moving to next? And what am I doing next? Yeah. So it was definitely whoring after Yeah, it was really tiring because you literally just pack everything up, put it in a container, and then, you know, move to the next place, not really knowing what to expect. But yeah, again, I think while you’re younger, it’s great. But I think as you get a bit older, it starts to become a little more difficult. Right. And also, at the time I left Chevron, my dad was unwell. So he’s back in New Zealand, and I just wanted to spend some time with my parents too. Yeah. So yes, I guess that the planets aligned and, you know, got my dog training, experience and shelter. Yeah, which I’ve been accumulating that was, I guess, yeah, it’s the time I started that I didn’t know that that’s what I was going to end up doing. But Because I loved it so much. And yeah, I wanted to see if I could make a business out of it. Sort of that that came to the point where I was ready to make that decision. Chevron actually came to an endpoint. And then, you know, my dad was ml and I wanted to spend some time with him. And he was right

 

Bryn 

on point or you came to the end of a posting. And

 

Kelly Brown 

yeah, I had the opportunity to move to a different role at the end of that assignment. But yeah, it was at that point, I decided Now’s not the time to do something else.

 

Bryn 

Difficult leaving that?

 

Kelly Brown 

Not really.

 

Kelly Brown 

Not really. I was ready. Yeah, actually, you know, I mentioned before that I was living in Perth for two years before I went to Houston and Houston was my last role was Chevron. And I think I could have quite easily stayed in Perth. At that point. It was quite a hard decision to, you know, to sort of get moved to Houston and although Houston was again a great opportunity. It was just yeah, I think that was the time When I thought Yes, it’s time to time to do something else. Yeah, time to go.

 

Bryn 

So how is the corporate Chevron Kelly compared to?

 

Kelly Brown 

Trying to Kelly? Yeah, I think the dog trying to Kelly was always underneath.

 

Kelly Brown 

Yeah, it’s been quite interesting because, um, I think in the corporate world, you know, you’re dealing with a different type of person, you know, you’re dealing with senior managers and my HR roles were quite involved with senior leadership group. So it was always, you know, really high level discussions and always get a lot of analytical thinking and a lot of just sort of working behind the scenes. Yeah. And then in the dog training world, it’s a lot of face to face contact with clients. It’s being able to, you know, deliver information in a way that they can understand easily So dealing with a much wider range of people, and having to yet tailor the information that I’m giving to them, so that they understand and easiest way possible. So there’s that aspect of it is you’re dealing with completely different people. Different different grounding now. Absolutely. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, it’s, um, I think the biggest thing for me is, you know, when you have your own business, you make all the decisions, right. And in the corporate world, there’s a lot of layers, you know, and a lot of approvals and a lot of processes that you have to go through before you can get a lot of things done. So a lot of it is in all that negotiation, whereas when you have your own business, you make your decision and you do it. Yeah. And you immediately know whether or not it’s the right decision or whether you need to change that. Yeah.

 

Bryn 

The nice thing I mean, since I left Chevron because it didn’t feel like I was wading through this life decision jello. Yeah, where is now more than work? I do. I can see the impact. Yes, absolutely. That’s really rewarding.

 

Kelly Brown 

Absolutely. And yeah, you’re exactly right. The results are very tangible. You know, if you explain something to someone and they don’t understand, and then you know, you’re trying to help them train the dog and it doesn’t work, you can say it doesn’t work. Yeah. Right. So straight away with the dog in front of you, you can say, you know, how they’re responding? Yeah. It’s also because it’s a lot more tangible, you can see the results more easily. Right. So you can and and i think that part of it is really rewarding to feedback. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Because you can say right now the dog is trained, you know, now the dogs like that behaviour on you know, and you can, you can see exactly what it looks like. Whereas, sometimes, you know, in that corporate environment, you put a piece of work together and or you do something and you kind of don’t really know, other than the feedback you get from that particular person, you know how much of an impact that has on? You know everyone else in the organisation? So,

 

Bryn 

yeah, the last piece of work I wrote, was it nine months? From the end? I did it.

 

 

Yeah, there’s crickets.

 

 

Oh, yeah, that’s exactly it. So done anything. Yeah.

 

Kelly Brown 

Yeah, absolutely. And the other thing too, you know, I found with Chevron is because I had a lot of different roles and different countries and a lot of different cultures with different supervisors. I didn’t change but my supervisor changed. And then I also found that my success of how well I was perceived to have done in the role was directly related to my to how well I got on with my supervisor.

 

Kelly Brown 

My supervisor really well, you know, I got a really good performance rating.

 

 

Yeah, if

 

Kelly Brown 

there was some personality clashes or we weren’t always quite aligned, then I didn’t get as good a rating, right. So it was always very much dependent on just one person. Yeah. And I thought Well, you know, I’m the same pace and I know we get on with somebody better than others. But that was the trend that I found right throughout my career with Chevron. Whereas now, you know, I can I don’t have that issue anymore. It’s just, it’s really liberating. And it just, it’s, I feel much more freedom to be able to, you know, do what I want to do. Without being stopped being told. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So, yeah, it’s it’s definitely very different. And it’s, um, yeah, it has definitely been a bit of a transition. I think what I miss about the corporate world is just the networking. You know, because you’ve got, you know, a team of workmates. And then you I think, you know, because I was having so many different global roles. I was always sort of networking globally and always, you know, seeing different places and it was always quite interesting. Let’s do things going on. But I think now Yeah, I think being a, you know, so operator, in the dog training industry, and I think a lot of people in the industry can relate to this as it’s you don’t have that regular those regular grips. People the same people that you see all the time, because you’re always seeing new clients and you’re always bringing new people in. And yeah, it’s not. I think that networking is is not there. So you’ve got to actively go out and seek it. So I think yeah, that that piece I do, miss. But yeah, otherwise I’m absolutely 100% happy to have made the made the move

 

Bryn 

to like your everyday life outside of work.

 

Kelly Brown 

Yeah. So I guess coming to Perth, I was lucky because I’d already made friends here. So yeah, I’ve got and I’ve also made friends overseas who have moved here. So that’s made it a lot easier for me to transition here. So this sort of almost felt like I was coming home. Yeah. Rather than going to a brand new place, which, yes, definitely made it a lot easier.

 

Bryn 

So tell me what’s the underlying principles or methodology philosophy behind the way you train dogs?

 

Kelly Brown 

Yeah, sure. So I use what’s called a Positive reinforcement. Yeah, I’m so basic learning theory, the translation to that is positive means to add something, I a food reward or play or a toy or something that the dog finds reinforcing. So to add something, yeah can do yet positive just means yet to add anything. It can also mean something negative. But in this when you add it with the word reinforcement, that means to increase the likelihood that a behaviour is going to happen. So yeah, then in layman’s terms, that just means using rewards using rewards to train the dog. So it’s all for free for free and fear free. So that means that there’s no force fear or intimidation. And the principle behind it is you really understand the dog to learn what motivates them and then you learn whatever motivates them to teach them new behaviours and to reward them.

 

Bryn 

All the basic things that motivate all the All right chickens.

 

Kelly Brown 

Yeah, I had a dog it doesn’t look first.

 

Kelly Brown 

But you know, it depends on it really depends on the breed right and what they were bred for. So, you know, all dogs have what’s called a predatory sequence and depending on the predatory sequence that starts with so it’s that it’s the sequence that they go through the behaviour sequence they go through in order to catch prey. So it starts with AI and then when they look at something look at the prey and then stalk and then Chase and then grab a bite and then kill or shake bite and then sometimes parade around with their with their prey. And then possess which is also also comes into the parade and then dissect and then consume right so depending on the on the breed for example, herding breeds and more genetically predisposed. predisposed to I still And chase Yeah, right um, so system size so, Border Collies, Australian shepherds, kelpies yes I the dogs that are bred for hurting herding sheep, and then you know your bully breeds so yeah, for example stuffies or they like so they find reinforcing the grab the grab bite and the shake bite or the kill bite. Yeah. So yeah, there’s just an example. So then once you know what the dog has a preference for depending on the breed, but also depending on the individual personality. Yeah, because that can that can change things a bit as well. Then you use that in play to reward the dog. So for example, if it’s a hurting braid, you might just gently roll a ball so that they can stop and control the movement of the ball once they’ve done something correct. It’s a if it’s a snappy Yeah, absolutely. Yes, absolutely. So it’s not just going you’re a dog and you like food. right because a lot of dogs as well and not highly motivated by food. Yeah, so they they Fine play more reinforcing. So it’s just yeah, it’s understanding what it is in particular that dog likes, whether it’s food or a particular type of food or adding movement into the food even. And then it’s, yeah, what, what? So what part of the predatory sequence Do they like? And then how do you incorporate that into the training to reward them so that that increases their motivation to want to do whatever it is that you’re trying to teach them? It’s really cool. Yeah, it’s very, very different to the old school. Yeah, so traditionally, dogs were trained, using, you know, force and fear and intimidation. So you know, you must do this. Yeah. And they were pushing Yeah, choker chains and, and which is still used, you know, by a lot of trainers today. Yeah, prong collars, and yeah, all sorts of all sorts of aversive tools that basically make the dog do it because they have no choice. Your if they don’t do it, then they get punished using that particular tool. Save the shot callers as well. It does unfortunately, what it does is it shuts the dog down. So it doesn’t they they become fearful of doing anything wrong. Because they get punished when they do it wrong. And then that, yeah, it shuts them down and stops them from wanting to learn and wanting to do things. And it’s Yeah, you get a very, very different dog at the end of that. Right.

 

 

Yeah. Whereas if,

 

Bryn 

yeah, whereas if I say if you’re positively rewarding the dog, then the wanting to do more and more. Yeah. Then if they do something such as this on the carpet, you don’t

 

Kelly Brown 

know correct.

 

Bryn 

So yeah, remove the the positive attention.

 

Kelly Brown 

Yes. So

 

Kelly Brown 

yeah, absolutely. So the easiest way to think of behaviour modification is you manage the environment so that the dog physically cannot do the unwanted behaviour. Right. So say for example, peeing on the carpet. What you would do is restrict the dogs area so that they all pick up the dogs or pick up whatever it is that pick their pmon. So that they can’t physically do it. Yeah. Or have you have them attached to you on lead when you’re walking around the house? Okay, yeah, keep them, you know, in a separate space where they’ve got a toilet area, that would be the first things I use management said that they actually physically cannot do that behaviour. Right? Because the more they do the behaviour, the more it strengthened. Yeah. And the more it strengthen, the harder it is to change. Yes. Yeah. So number one is always management that goes for any behaviour. If it’s jumping up, then you have them on later that they particularly conduct proper people. Yeah, yeah. So if it’s running away, then you have them on a long line so that they can’t run away. Yeah. So number one, always management. And then number two, you know, looking at the behaviour itself and working out how you can teach him an incompatible alternative behaviour. So, you know, peeing on the carpet can be for a number of reasons it can be could be a medical reason, so you want to roll that out first. Could be just because of the Built a habit of doing that, right. So that’s where you use your management. And then what you want to do is the third thing is rewarding them for doing the correct behaviour. Right. So you would give them plenty of opportunities to pay outside, you would reward them heavily for being outside. And then you would create a habit for doing the right thing. Yeah. So with that combination of management to prevent them from doing the behaviour, and then rewarding the right behaviour, then that’s how you create behaviour change. There’s just

 

 

a lot of similarities

 

Bryn 

in the office in the last couple of years, and basically said, in my leadership role, let’s not pat the dog on the head.

 

 

Yeah.

 

 

Yeah,

 

Kelly Brown 

yep. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. It’s very logical, you know, and I think having a psychology background So that sort of did it University. Yeah. It and then having all that experience with people, right, because that was my job in HR was dealing with people all the time, all sorts of different people. And then learning about dog behaviour and doing my dog training qualifications is, you know, the learning theory is based on human learning, learning theory, you know, the learning to image for positive reinforcement, reinforcement, that’s a quadrant of human learning. Yes. which applies to dogs. So, yeah, there’s a lot of similarities and it’s, a lot of it is just common common sense. Yeah. Yeah. It’s not It’s not complicated. It’s just I think, you know, what I see is a lot of people are just misinformed. You know, there’s a lot of information out there that is either outdated or, or incorrect or just doesn’t make sense. But, you know, because there is so much information people don’t know what to do. And a lot of people when they go back to Yeah, what they’ve learned What they’ve been told or what they’re saying on Facebook, you know, group or what their friends have told them or, you know, they say they Yeah, they rely on that they try it that usually doesn’t work. And then that’s when they come and see me. So yeah, I think people, a lot of people do things just because they think that’s the way it should be done not because they’re not open to seeing new ways of doing things. And then

 

Bryn 

yeah, that’s why I thought it’d be really interesting to talk to you today about, about that underlying principle of training dots. applicable Yes. Elsewhere in life. Absolutely. Find yourself doing it with friends and family.

 

Kelly Brown 

Using one word syllable set, right. Yeah.

 

Kelly Brown 

Yeah, I think really does really well. Yeah, you you’re probably right. But I think that’s that hasn’t changed for me because I’ve always done that. Yeah, right from when I started my entire career and and had my interest in human Psychology and yeah, I’ve always sort of been able to try that. And it’s Yeah, nothing’s really changed. It’s just, I almost feel like my subject has changed, you know, instead of people dealing with people and now, you know, dealing with dogs, but also dealing with people because I would say 80% of what I do is helping people helping educate people.

 

Bryn 

How much dog Yeah, how much is it? I would say

 

Kelly Brown 

80% it about 80% of our teaching that I know.

 

Bryn 

So technically, you’re a dog owner trainer.

 

Kelly Brown 

Absolutely.

 

Kelly Brown 

Not a dog trainer. I started out being a dog trainer.

 

Kelly Brown 

But then I realised that it wasn’t really just about training the dog. Yeah. Because, you know, training the dog would be somebody gives me the dog and says, right train my dog. Yeah. And that’s not what I do. Because the biggest part of it for me is educating people on how to continue that and I think that’s where a lot of people fall down. You know, the toning Dog the dog is easy for me. But it’s it’s trying, I need to train the people so that they can continue what I’m doing, which will have a long term impact because they’ve you know, they have the dog, they can do it every day, even just five minutes a day, 10 minutes a day. And if they know what to do and how to do it, then that’s going to make it you know, have a much bigger impact than me just having an hour with the dog to find

 

Bryn 

some of the people that you’re trying

 

 

to try it is quite large breakthroughs then. Yeah.

 

Bryn 

Not just how they do. Yeah, do dogs but do live?

 

Kelly Brown 

Yeah, I think. Yeah, absolutely. I think.

 

Kelly Brown 

Yeah, I think, you know, often in the first session,

 

Kelly Brown 

people are a little bit sceptical, either they’ve had tried this before, or they’re not quite sure what’s going to happen or they’re not quite sure you know, how I do things. But what I say is even just in that first session, I see the expression on people’s faces change When they realise what can be done with their dog, you know, so take, for example, loose leash walking it, I’ll pose on lead, and they can’t take the dog for a walk. You know? And then yes, pulling it off as they walk down the road. Yeah. You know, so in the first session, I’ll take them through some exercises, I’ll show them how to do with them with a dog, and then show them how to continue them. And I often say, when I work with a dog, they look at their dog and go, Wow, is that my dog actually being able to do that? And I see them standing there, and I can see them at the corner of my eye and see their expressions, as I’m doing stuff with the dog. So that to me says it’s in that particular case, and this is not always the case. But, you know, in that particular case, it’s not. It’s not the dog itself. It’s the way that you work with the dog. It’s the way you communicate with the dog. It’s the way your body languages, it’s the way you’re standing. It’s what you’re doing with your hands. That’s how you’re holding the lasers. You know, all those things put together. That’s the piece that I need to teach people. Yeah, you know, Not just the dog, right, not just to teach the dogs walking on the stage, and then I can see, yeah, that’s it’s really rewarding to see that change on people’s faces when they go, Wow, that’s my dog, you know, and it’s, it’s, it’s motivating them to want to do it as well, because that’s the important piece, you know. And once they can see that once they can see that they can do it. I think that’s priceless. Because then they start to realise, wow, why? Look at my dog, you know, yeah, I thought that was just a pain in the butt. But, you know, look at what they can be like with just a little bit of work

 

Bryn 

that opens up possibility and probability. Yeah. Nobody in your life can do and break.

 

Kelly Brown 

That’s right, because that’s why they got the dog or the first place, right, because that’s what they wanted. They wanted a dog that, you know, did that what they wanted it to do. So yeah, when you help them realise that that is that can actually happen. And you know, this is this is the first step then. Yeah, it’s nice.

 

Bryn 

Do you ever meet any people who you think

 

 

Absolutely.

 

 

David, I’m not supposed to talk about

 

Bryn 

honest in this as well. Yeah, yeah there. Is there a fun stuff having to work?

 

Kelly Brown 

Um, yeah, I find a lot of people who? Yeah, I guess I’m lucky the vast majority of people who contact me agree with my training methods.

 

 

Yeah. And take some time to explain it to them.

 

Kelly Brown 

Ah, usually, it’s pretty clear on my website. So I’ve only really had a couple who have said, I just want a quick fix. I’m not prepared to put in you know, that amount of time. So I’ve been quite lucky in that respect. I’ve seen a lot of dogs in the wrong households. You know, dogs that just a little bit anxious or not confident but are in a crazy environment, you know, with lots of crazy kids and high traffic areas with lots of people coming and going. Yeah, you know, yeah. So that that definitely has an impact on the dog. I think in a lot of cases, the behaviour of the dog reflects the behaviour of the people. I see, you know, I see over 100 dogs a week. So I see a lot of dogs, you know, come into great classes and

 

Bryn 

all this

 

 

normally put your finger on it, Tom

 

Kelly Brown 

Yeah, but and but as I’m saying more have been able to go, you know, rather than just looking at the dog and saying, right, we need to fix the dog. It’s, you know, what’s going on in the dogs environment. You know, how much time are you spending with the dog? What is your household look like? What what are you doing with the dog? You know, are you making sure that the dog has appropriate outlets for natural dog behaviours, because a lot of you know, and I saw this it was it was even worse in Houston people would create their dogs for 12 hours a day. So they put the dog in a crate, close the crate door, go to work. You know, it’s been 12 hours at work and then come home and then let the dog out. And you can imagine what that would do to a dog. Yeah. And I think, yeah, I used to see a lot of dogs come in with severe behavioural issues just because of what the people, you know what circumstances that people would put the dog under, either because they didn’t know or they just didn’t have time or whatever that you know, whatever the situation was so yeah, I think it that was part of, you know, with a whole thing of wanting to help the people to help their dog piece came in because I thought, well, if he can help the people help educate people on what it is that the dog needs, yes, then a lot of those behaviours start to fall away. Yeah,

 

Bryn 

yeah. Because let’s face it, if you if you strip it back, you are catching the dope. You’re not talking to the dog.

 

Kelly Brown 

whispering to the dog. I’m whispering to the

 

Kelly Brown 

you know, the old version of the dog was bad. Maybe the new and

 

Bryn 

the old dog whisperer is very much part of the old schoolers.

 

Kelly Brown 

Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Very much dominance based pattern based. Yeah.

 

Bryn 

Yeah. Yeah. So how do what does it actually what was it like setting up Bible titles and, and and going right I’m gonna do this I’m putting it out into the world.

 

Kelly Brown 

Yeah so um it started off slowly which is what I wanted to do

 

Kelly Brown 

I at the time it’s I was in New Zealand when I started up I finished up in Houston finishing on went to New Zealand. And yeah, part of part of my goal was just have a bit of a break after Chevron. But the other part of it was to do something that I loved right because I’m not good at doing nothing I need to have something to do. So I just started I actually started off doing a flyer drop. So I printed you know, 500 flyers destructable and litter boxes in the neighbourhood for a dog walker. So just set up doing dog walking, I thought it’s a nice easy way to start nice and relaxing. walking walking dogs and yeah just started from there and then sort of I had a nice day off leash group dog walks and take them through the forest and it was beautiful burwood Forest which is just you know, kilometres of trails and under trees and yeah, it’s absolutely lovely. So I used to go around and I got myself a van and kitted out with crates in it. So went around, picked up the dogs, took them out to the forest took them for an hour and a half walk, put them all back in the van and then took them home again and yes, I was doing that which was a lot of fun and that really taught me about taught me a lot about group dynamics with dogs. So how to control off leash dogs how to you know, teach them things like coming back to you when you call and how to do directions I had to teach them to go left and validation to go right with a whistle and they had a control group so that was that was great for offline group stuff. And then I thought right ready for the next things I started do training. So I did private in home training and put training plans together and yeah, help clients reach their goals with their dogs. Yeah, and then started Yeah, but at the same time, I was also gaining some more qualifications. So I went to the US and worked with a lady called Pat Miller. Yes. Yeah. Very well known dog trainer in the US. And yes, with some time with hair and hair qualification, and then also did a qualification here in Australia through national dog trainers Federation. So yeah, up up my skill level and then started doing some more behaviour cases. Some more complex cases. And then yeah, it just grew naturally. Yeah, some teaching classes as well. So

 

Kelly Brown 

and how do you offer your training now? Yeah, so um, I do a combination of group classes. Yeah. So that’s for puppies, puppy group classes as well as adult dogs or dogs was fully vaccinated and over

 

Bryn 

right so there’s young puppies classroom and the young.

 

Kelly Brown 

Yes, absolutely.

 

Bryn 

Not the ideal time. Absolutely.

 

Kelly Brown 

Very. Yes. Every puppy must go to public school. So the common belief, so I ran let me say five, nine public classes a week 900 classes with eight puppies maximum. And one of the questions I asked in my public class is who’s fit told them not to take their puppy out until they’re fully vaccinated? 80 to 100% of the class put their hand up. Yeah. Dogs are not fully vaccinated until after after 12 weeks. And in the first 12 weeks is what’s called the critical socialisation period. Right. So basically, what that means is within that first 12 weeks, you need to expose the puppy to as much of the environment that you would expect them to be okay with in their track. Yeah. So whatever you want them to do, as adults, you’ve got to do that with them when they’re puppies. Yeah, for that critical socialisation window closes at around 12 weeks. It can be slightly nicer but to be safe, yeah, depending on the grade, and depending underdog. And so that is super, super, super important, right? Because if you don’t, then they naturally become fearful of whatever it is that they haven’t seen. Yes. Right. And so then you start to get behavioural problems so you don’t get the, you know, the fearful behaviour. Okay, so the the information that the vets are giving, so don’t take your puppy out until they’re fully vaccinated because they’re worried about them catching diseases, right? So for example, Parvo, Parvo virus can live in the soil for up to seven years. And if you put your puppy on soiled, and they can potentially contract public, right, so that’s what why the bits aside, don’t tell your puppies out however. Yeah, the problem with that is, once I fully vaccinated, that window is closed. So they haven’t been socialised. Yeah.

 

Bryn 

And the medical imperative

 

 

Yes. Which,

 

Bryn 

yeah, my son’s but has a big impact.

 

Kelly Brown 

Yeah, for sure. So there’s a way around that right, which is take your puppy to a public class right with They cleaned the floors with fifth grade if team solution so that it’s all nice and clean. Yeah. And then you carry your puppy everywhere with you, right? You just don’t put them on the ground. So you can take them to the market. So you can take them to Bunnings and put them in the trolley and wheel them around. You can, you know, put them you put them on a blanket, you put them in a pram, you can take them in the car, you can, you know, do all those things that you would normally do, but just don’t put them on the ground. So, yes, so you can be safe socialisation. And also, you know, don’t meet unvaccinated dogs, right? Because you don’t know if they’ve been vaccinated. So within that critical socialisation period and until a fully vaccinated unvaccinated dogs but they can meet, you know, socially appropriate, friendly dog so you can come over to your place and then they’ll make you know puppies and other puppy class so yeah, there’s plenty that you can do to socialise them so they’re going to turn out to be well rounded dogs. Yeah, with that.

 

Bryn 

Again, same thing. Kids and sending them to this rare young age. I noticed anyway.

 

 

Oh good. And then for

 

Kelly Brown 

that reason

 

Bryn 

a little bit yeah. High dividends.

 

Kelly Brown 

Absolutely. Yeah. The other thing too is if you take them to a good public class, and it’s got to be a good public class Oh, it’s not a good public Yeah, that’s good question. Yeah. Besides mine This has been a question Yes. Thank you. So should be a combination of a few different things so should be run by a qualified for three rewards based trainer is the first one the floor should be cleaned with fit with bit grade solution right if the insulation so they’re nice and clean and sanitary, so they’re not going to pick anything up. Yeah. They should be a combination of information. Right. So information about basic puppy stuff like toilet training and puppy biting. socialisation and our body language, right? So the basics Yeah, as well as some basic skills, right. So sit down and eye contact and recall and message walking. And then also supervised off leash play for a small proportion of the class. Right. So 1015 minutes

 

 

of an hour in class. Oh,

 

Kelly Brown 

yeah, I’m learning how to play together. Right, but that should not be free for all play. Yeah, puppies should be separated depending on mainly on confidence level. Right, right. Because you can get a you know, a big breed, large breed that’s not confident and you can get a small grade. Yeah, that’s super confident. Right. And so it doesn’t really depend on size so much that I didn’t like of course, it’s it’s placed I Oh, and one’s bowling the other one over. But yeah, you’ve got to match them appropriately, depending on confidence level, sometimes Braden age or playstyle, depending on how they’re going. Yeah, right. And then so you separate them Then you help them build confidence gradually. That’s not just a case of push them in there and hope for the best. And then they will bully each other and you know, each other over and they become more fearful and then you develop the they develop behaviour problems. Yeah, it’s just making sure that they’re all getting along well together. They’re building the confidence slowly. And yeah, other opportunities for socialisation as well. So you can bring in different surfaces and different objects and different noises and yeah, so it really should be you know, like a crash crash for puppies to help them build confidence to help owners become educated on what to do and how to handle your problems when they come up. So that that prepared Yeah, and to give them the best possible start to life that you can. Yeah, absolutely. Sounds so obvious. I know. The class that’s my Papi class. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So then I have level one and level two classes. So they just roll on. from public class I puppy classes.

 

Bryn 

After 12 weeks, would you leave?

 

Kelly Brown 

Yeah, I was definitely vaccinated, fully vaccinated and they come into the number one. So that’s done outdoors in a park. And then once a complete level one, they can move on to level two. So yeah, each of those programmes are six weeks long, or six classes and then also do private in home as well. So behaviour behaviour and training for either specific issues or if somebody wants specific help with, with a loose leash walking or recall or any particular waivers. Yeah. And then I also have my new programme, which I’m launching.

 

Kelly Brown 

Yes, my online course ultimate dog programme.

 

Bryn 

So what does that cover the?

 

Kelly Brown 

Yeah, so that’s, um, so that’s pretty much everything. It’s a really good basic eight week online course. It’s just with

 

Bryn 

dogs or puppies.

 

Kelly Brown 

Any it can be for anyone. Yeah. Any puppies of any age. Any age, breed size experience level. Yep, doesn’t matter. So. Yes, yeah. So that sets up it talks a bit about you know, how To understand your dog, so how to make sure that you’re providing them everything they need on a on the dog level. And then it talks about how to set up your home environment to make sure that you know, they’re not doing things like stealing socks and chasing the kids and jumping up on furniture and doing lots of stuff. And then teaching them some good basic behaviours, so how to how to behave at home and how to be well behaved so that you can trust them. Yeah. And then we start to move to out and about, so how to teach them to walk on a loose leash and focus on you around distraction so that they’re not chasing other dogs or, you know, running across the road and things like that. And then how to get them to come back to you when you call so that you can have them off leash.

 

Bryn 

Pretty cool, because then you can everyone can come apart.

 

Kelly Brown 

Yeah, that’s absolutely true. Yeah, so it’s, um, not all dogs are suitable for great classes. All right, just because a DA, they don’t have access to them so people might live too far away. Or there’s too much distraction in the environment. The dogs To be able to learn, because it’s great classes are quite tough, you know, for owners and for dogs. Yeah, they sound easy. But a lot of people who are training their dog for the first time, they need to listen to the trainer, they need to try to handle their dog. They need to handle food rewards and treats and try and get the dog to do what they want them to do. Yeah, in a high distraction environment, you know, yeah, ideally, what you want to do is the best way a dog will learn as you teach them in a low distraction environment, right. So inside or you know, somewhere nice and quiet, you get the behaviour, and then you gradually increase the distraction in the environment. So you might start in your lounge and in your backyard and your front yard then on a walk and then at the park. And you build it up slowly. Yeah, but what we’re expecting in a group classes, right, we’re going to start from scratch and we’re going to bring your dog and we’re going to train you, you’re going to try and listen to me and you’re going to try and train your dog all the time. So it can be quite overwhelming. Yeah, so not always. I see a lot of dogs come in to my great classes, how you don’t cope, don’t cry well, so just because it’s too much going on. Alright, so they need to be a long, long, long way away, which makes it really hard for them. So for those dogs, yes, it’s definitely really good for them. For people. Yeah, people who don’t have access to a good trainer, people who have really busy lives and can’t make regular class times every week. And then people who I can offer a lot more in an eight week programme, you know, then I can face to face, because there’s, I can take people much further, you know, in each of the different skills, because I can show them they can go away and practice they can do it and then they can go to the next level and then they can go away and practice in the next level and then go absolutely. So there’s a lot more scope to be able to take the dog a lot further.

 

 

Yeah,

 

Bryn 

it’s come a long way from handing out

 

Kelly Brown 

flow. Yeah, it has it has and this is my fourth year of business.

 

 

Yes, I

 

Kelly Brown 

yeah, it’s it’s um, it’s morphed a lot. From where I started, I think when I started I just, I didn’t really have a strong vision of what it was going to look like. I just knew I wanted to reach more dogs and reach more people. Yeah. And I think that’s the online programme is, you know, will enable me to do that. Because I don’t have to physically be in front of the person. Yeah, but I’m still virtually in front of the face it

 

Bryn 

Yeah, yeah. But I suppose the impact trying to have is people enjoying their time with their dog?

 

Kelly Brown 

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And in their own time, so so you know, if you want to do five or 10 minutes here in five or 10 minutes there and now here in an hour there you can and if you want to involve the whole family, you can you can all sit down and watch it together. Yeah.

 

 

Must be super rewarding when you get people say to you,

 

Bryn 

especially if you turn it all around. Yeah, well, just, you know, and then all of a sudden, they’ve gone from having this bloody nuisance in the house. Yep. Which can then cause distress.

 

 

Absolutely. Cuz Yeah, you just want to call

 

Bryn 

Dogs deal with a nuisance must be really rewarding when they turn around

 

Kelly Brown 

it is for sure. Absolutely. And I think that’s the key. It’s, you know, it is it is changing people’s lives because I think people have an expectation when they get a dog of what their life is going to look like. Right. But it doesn’t always turn out that way. Yeah, you know, and I think we do that. Don’t worry.

 

Bryn 

Yeah, this is my version of reality should be like,

 

 

a bloody death grip on it. Yeah, that’s exactly why. And I think

 

Kelly Brown 

it doesn’t take a lot. It just takes,

 

Kelly Brown 

you know, a bit of time and consistency and knowing what to do and how to do it. Yeah. And I think once you know that, yeah, it all starts to fall into place pretty quickly and pretty easily. Yeah, it’s not. Yeah, it’s not overly complicated. It just takes a little bit of commitment.

 

Bryn 

Yeah. I mean, just listening to you now. Yeah, immediately. I’m like, kind of half get it now.

 

Kelly Brown 

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think, you know, the The good thing about the programme is I’ve been able to lay it out in a way that’s logical. And that builds it nice and slowly. Yeah. And you can take it as far as you like. So if you want to go the whole way through and have, you know, an amazing dog at the end of it, then you can set up that way. But if Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. But if you just want to get the basics, then you can do that, too. Yeah, it’s really as little or as much as you want to do. It’s all it’s all. They’re all laid out nicely, logically, based on, you know, working with thousands of dogs. Yeah. Yeah. And I think actually, you know, you asked about a little bit about where it all started. One dog that I, you know, I think I had a huge impact on and he had a huge impact on me was When I mentioned before about starting to take on Dog Training clients and question, and I had a call from somebody who was a trainer up in Oakland, and she said to me, oh, I’ve got a dog in Christchurch and I just need a trainer to offer some settling and assistance. So the dog is paired with a lady who has multiple sclerosis. So he’s going to be a support dog. It was three epilepsy trust. Yeah. And yeah, she she said, Would you mind just providing providing some assistance? So I was kind of thinking short term dogs being trained just to help

 

Bryn 

these dogs that go to Washington and yeah.

 

Kelly Brown 

Yeah, so I thought, yeah, that sounds great. I’d love to do something like that. Yeah. I thought maybe that’s what I want to get into. Yes, I sounds amazing. So we arranged a meeting and I went down to their house and there was the lady who are in the dog and there was the lady who had Found the dog and was doing the handing over and it was me. I turned up to the house. The dog’s name was Jake. He was a one and a half year old lab stephie cross. And he was absolutely crazy. So he was running all over the place. He was like barking at the fence. He was barking at the neighbours, he couldn’t sit still. He was like, just completely out of control. And the lady said to me, the trainer, she said, I’ve been working on some basic behaviours with him. And I said, What have you been working on? And she said, are, you know, sit and wait. And I said, Can you show me and so she tried to show me that all he kept doing was just going and barking at the fence.

 

 

And then,

 

Kelly Brown 

as the story went on, I found out that this dog had not really been trained at all. And, I mean, they didn’t really they didn’t say that right. But I could I could see where the dog was at. Yeah, I’m kind of thinking settling in sister assistance versus what I can say here. It’s not you It’s not really matching. Yeah. And so she went back up to Auckland and I sat down with the owner and said, right, you know, we had to start right from the start. So what do you want the dog to be able to do and it was things like retrieving her walkingstick carrying a basket for her with things in it, picking items up off the floor and returning them to her. Being able to walk beside her and her chair Yag pulling the washing out of the washing machine carrying things for her up the stairs. So I mean, it was quite complex task.

 

 

Yeah, the dog to be able to do.

 

Kelly Brown 

So we taught him from scratch or I told him from scratch, which was an amazing opportunity. And I worked with him for about a year. And now he is absolutely perfect. So he opens doors, he closes doors, he can go get a walking stick around the garden. He picks up her gardening tools when she drops them and gives them back to hair. And yeah, he’s the most beautiful dog. And it was a huge turnaround but it was one of those I have I got myself into kind of moment. So I just turned up and I thought, wow, this is way beyond you know what i what i thought that I was capable of doing but yeah, just the opportunity to work with him and really change her life was was just yeah, absolutely amazing. And I’m still I’m still in contact with her today and I still see Jake on videos and yeah, yeah be catching up with

 

Bryn 

the thing you can have you don’t doing by the end of the programme

 

 

for washing up

 

Kelly Brown 

I can put that in there if you want.

 

 

Yeah, it’s already a painting.

 

Kelly Brown 

Maybe maybe as a bonus I’ll put in there how to teach your dog to get a beer out of the fridge.

 

 

Yeah, yeah. It’s pretty

 

 

cool. Watch it.

 

Kelly Brown 

Yeah, definitely I can pop those in at the end.

 

Bryn 

I’m just coming out of dog training and looking at the Dogs and dog hair more broadly, how would you say the I’m just interested is how would you say the state of dog care is in Western Australia?

 

Kelly Brown 

I’m the site of dog care or the state of dog training. I’ve been both. Both. Yeah. So I’d say I’m gonna I guess, I have he said to compare it against, you know, because that was where I was most heavily involved. I’d say it’s way ahead of Houston. Yeah, um, you know, Houston, millions of dogs are euthanized every year, I think, obviously a much larger population. But yeah, a lot more behavioural issues, I think. Yeah, I think in terms of training methods, it’s still very mixed. You know, you get the positive punishment side, which are the people who use choke chains and shock collars. And yeah, you know, those sort of aversive training methods, and then you’ve got, you know, me and other trainers at the other end of that continuum. So I think there is definitely a continuum but I really Yeah, we’ve got a Yeah, they’re quite a few positive reinforcement trainers here and why so it’s a good support network? Definitely. So I think yes, definitely there if, if that’s how you want to train your dog, I think people are a lot of feedback I hear from people. You know, we tried such and such a trainer who uses aversive methods, and it didn’t work or we didn’t like the way they treated our dog or we didn’t like the you know, the outcome. And now it’s the, it’s caused other behavioural issues, which is the other part of it. It’s not just what they’re doing at the time. It’s the fallout of all that.

 

 

Right.

 

Kelly Brown 

Yeah, exactly. Because that causes other behavioural problems. So I get a I get a lot of those people saying, you know, we tried it didn’t work. We want to come to see you because we want to try and do it, you know, using rewards based methods. So that’s what I hear from clients. So it is yet positive reinforcement will is definitely here in Perth. I think people are moving that way from what I hear of people who are contacting me

 

Bryn 

for a job of educating.

 

Kelly Brown 

Yeah, absolutely. It’s educating, it’s when you see things like that,

 

Kelly Brown 

you know, helping to rather than put people down or make them feel, you know, like they’re doing something horrible, it’s helping to re educate them in a way where they can see the benefits of how to train your dog using positive reinforcement, you know, and you can see it in the dog’s body language it’s it’s very clear I can see dogs Yeah, that have been trained using aversives when they come to me they’re fearful they’re shut down their avoid eye contact the skittish they don’t like being touched. They don’t like being handled, they don’t like equipment being put on them. You know, you can you can see that

 

Bryn 

responsive dogs if you see them or shrink.

 

Kelly Brown 

Absolutely, yeah, they’re so expressive through their body language. Whereas, you know, when you look at a dog like Jake, that I mentioned before, he’s been trained only using positive reinforcement. He just willingness to learn and to be engaged and to stay engaged and to, you know, to be involved in the process is just, it’s you can’t even compare it.

 

 

Yeah.

 

Kelly Brown 

So it’s Yeah, it’s it’s, um, yeah, I guess it’s a difference. And, you know, like I mentioned before people having used a versa because that’s what they were told to do, but then realising that’s not what I want to do. It’s not how I want to treat my dog. And then coming over to, you know, using positive reinforcement. Yeah, yeah, I think in my experience, there are people willing to willing to change the ways they’re training their dogs, I don’t see a lot of the, you know, the world where they’re using aversives because they choose not to operate in their face. And if I see things that are situations where people are, perhaps, you know, not treating their way or their dog in the best way possible, I try to educate in a way that’s productive, not your way that some you know, putting them down or you making them feel bad.

 

Bryn 

What have you learned about yourself in this journey?

 

 

Yeah, um, I think

 

 

that’s a good question. Um,

 

 

I think I’ve learnt

 

Kelly Brown 

that are more adaptable than I thought I would be. Right. So I think when you go to a nine to five job it’s different, right? Because you know, you’re going to get a paycheck at the end of it, you know that you’re going to get the same amount. You know, you can there’s a, there’s a natural career path that you can see yourself going up, you know where you’re heading. It’s all kind of laid out for you. I think. When you have your own business, it’s not like that, right? Yes, you’ve got to earn your own money, you’ve got a title or different things. You’ve got to be quite adaptable. If something doesn’t work, you’ve got to try something else that that doesn’t work or try something else. So yeah, I think I’ve learned that I’m a lot more adaptable than I thought I would be. Also resilience. Yeah, resilience is a something that’s important. Yeah, and just that it’s so nice to be able to do something that I love, you know, and to be passionate about something. Yeah, rather than just kind of following a path because you think that that’s the right thing to do. Yeah, yeah.

 

Bryn 

What does the next three to five years holding? Still do? It’s a hard question.

 

 

I think because I’m

 

Kelly Brown 

the way my business is growing is it’s just I’ve tried to grab opportunities as I’ve come up, rather than actually planning for them. You know, like, I’ve known that I wanted my business to grow and expand, but I just didn’t know what really what that looked like. But each time I’ve seen an opportunity, I’ve just gone right I’m going to try that and I’ve tried to grab it and grow it. So I think that’s what I’m going to keep doing, you know, as the next three to five years is just really keep grabbing those different opportunities. I would like to see The online side of my business grow. So I’ve got my ultimate dog programme and I’d also like to offer more programmes in the pipeline next year will be a puppy programme. So ultimate puppy. Yeah, how to raise your puppy to be you know the perfect puppy? Yeah. So I’ll have my ultimate puppy and then I’ll have my ultimate dog and also potentially you know, there’s a lot of people out there who need support dogs and are interested in training their own dog Yeah, so yeah, just perhaps putting a programme like that together which is gonna you know, just friends Yeah.

 

 

Exactly where the dustpan and brush Yeah.

 

Kelly Brown 

When you’re at work, you know you do your housework.

 

Kelly Brown 

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely. So I think Yeah, just reaching more people building more online programmes. Yeah, just Helping as many people with their dogs as I can.

 

 

Yeah. capacity. Yeah,

 

Bryn 

definitely. So one of the questions I like to ask guests is Do you have any sort of daily routine which keeps you sort of grounded because obviously this is your business you’re on your own you working in it? Yes. probably get quite heady. Yes. bring yourself back into yourself.

 

Kelly Brown 

Definitely. So I think

 

Kelly Brown 

especially the beginning of this year, when I just moved to Perth, it was it was almost like setting up a new business again. So even though I’d had the two years in New Zealand you know, new place new people, new customers, it was Yeah, almost exciting it from the beginning and it’s very easy to become consumed by work, you know, especially when you’re in a new place and you don’t have new routines. And you don’t have regular satin finish times. You know, because you’re working a lot from home or you you managing your own time and also working a lot of evenings and weekends, because that’s when people are generally available. Yeah. So I think, yeah, it’s important to set boundaries for yourself. Which is like I say, it’s hard to do in the beginning because you just want to you’re trying to make money right? You’re trying to build your business you try to put bread on the table. Yeah, yeah. So you do what you have to do, which is working evenings and weekends and just when people other people are available, but yeah, as the business is growing and and yes, things are expanding. Its Yeah, I realised it’s important to have some structure to the day and to bring in things that I enjoy doing, which it’s, it’s also, you know, when you enjoy the work that you’re doing, it doesn’t feel like work. Yes. So when I’m training dogs, and working with dogs and people, it does not feel like work. And I know it’s not like sitting in the office. Yeah, going on. Right. Looking at the clock. How long have I gotten to lunch and then what time zone time and yeah, it’s it’s not like that at all. It’s I love what I do. So it’s, it’s Yeah, it’s harder to put boundaries in place because I just want to keep going. Yeah,

 

Bryn 

it was interesting listening to you talk about life at Chevron, and then life as a dog trainer. Yeah. And positive rewards based training and, you know, adverse punishment by steel. And, you know, there is an element of the corporate structure, which keeps you in a relatively anxious state about what is done is the next thing and there’s don’t like you said earlier on if you don’t get on so well with your boss. Yep. things don’t happen. You don’t get performance ratings. Have you? Yeah, absolutely. Kind of interesting, as I sit here, and listen to the Cali journey, because the obvious part of the difference in dog training techniques, but then different aspects to reflect Yeah,

 

 

yeah. Yeah, I think income.

 

Kelly Brown 

You know, guess when we go to work and there’s there’s a lot of you know, and looking at it from an HR perspective, there’s a lot of different things that motivate you. Right. And and it’s hard for employers to get that, right, because it’s different for everybody. Everybody has different motivators, I guess. You know, and and, yeah, like dogs, right. So, a lot of people think that what motivates people is money. Right. But that’s not that’s not what motivates a lot of people. And they’ve done a lot of surveys and relationship with a supervisor is the number one thing that motivates people, right. So when you look at if that’s what motivates people, when then you translate that to dogs, you know, if the number one thing that motivates a dog is a relationship with the person or with the owner, then if you can get that bit, right, yeah, you know, then you improve that relationship and you prove the dog’s life. Right. Yeah. So that’s, that’s definitely a parallel about what motivates dogs and people

 

Bryn 

I wonder that one of the biggest indicators of a longer healthier life is healthy relationships. Yeah, definitely. out of the gym not

 

Kelly Brown 

Yeah.

 

Bryn 

Well, this Yes. happy, healthy relationship. Definitely.

 

Bryn 

Yeah. And obviously, as well as the paper.

 

Kelly Brown 

Yes. And it’s a partnership, right. It’s it goes both ways. It’s for the dog and it’s for the person. Yeah. Right. So if you can improve the, you know, improve the dog, then you improve the life of the person, which then improves the life of the dog. So it’s like,

 

 

yeah, it’s a virtuous circle. Yeah,

 

Kelly Brown 

definitely. Definitely. And going back to, you know, what motivates people and what motivates the dog finding what that is, you know, is is again going to help the whole situation you know, if it’s not money and if if it’s not relationship with the supervisor, then what else is that? You know? Yeah, so it’s there’s definitely, definitely a bit of science behind it, but

 

Bryn 

yeah, So the last question I asked my guest is if you could take a little nugget of information and just upload it into the collective consciousness, so everyone just gets it. Yeah. What would it be?

 

Kelly Brown 

I think the first thing would be

 

Kelly Brown 

to repeat the question.

 

 

Knowledge. Yes.

 

Bryn 

uploaded it into the collective consciousness. So everyone just got it. Yes. Part of everybody just operated.

 

Kelly Brown 

Yes. I think it would be work with your dog not against your dog. Yeah. I see it as a partnership. Yeah, it’s a partnership not as being against your dog. Right. My dogs doing this for dogs doing that to make my life difficult. Yeah. So don’t look at it like that. Look at it as an How can I work with with my dog to really solve this issue. Yeah. So that we’re a team and we can do this together. And so that we can improve both of our lives. Yeah. Love it.

 

Bryn 

So if anyone’s listening to this, and they want to reach out to you, where can they find you?

 

Kelly Brown 

Yeah, sure. So they can find me via my website, which is wykel tales.com. Au. Yeah, they can find me on my Facebook page, which is forward slash wigle tales, Docs. And yeah, that will probably be the easiest, easiest way to get ahold of me. Awesome.

 

Bryn 

It’s been an absolute pleasure talking to you today. Kelly.

 

 

Thank you. It’s been

 

Bryn 

fascinating to listen to the different layers of it, you know, the behavioural part behind the dogs, but then also reflecting on it, dealing with people and and your journey with it all. It’s been awesome.

 

Kelly Brown 

It’s been lovely. Thank you very much.

 

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

dog, behaviour, people, absolutely, work, chevron, programme, training, puppy, realise, dog trainer, trainer, classes, moving, put, bit, rewards, life, kelly, walking

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