#133 Bethan Winn – Critical Thinking

Dive inside your own critical thinking patterns with expert Bethan Winn.

Bethan takes time to clearly explain some of the common thinking and decision-making biases and fallacies that we all fall prey to and the impact they have while navigating our everyday life. She also explains the difference between our instinctive reactive thinking patterns and the deeper more considerative patterns and when and how we access them.

The conversation then goes deeper into exploring emotions and thinking and the role they play and the influence they have on us.

This is a fantastic and hugely approachable and engaging conversation, Bethan’s gratitude and passion for this area is clear from start to finish.

For the listener it provides a clear framework for greater self-awareness and reflection on the mechanics of your own thinking patterns and decision making.

Read Full Transcript

Bryn 

Dive inside your own critical thinking patterns with expert Bethan when Bethany takes time to clearly explain some of the common thinking and decision making biases and fallacies that we all fall prey to, and the impact they have on navigating our everyday life. She also explains the difference between our instinctive reactive thinking patterns, and the more deeper considerately of patterns and when and how we access them. The conversation then goes deeper into exploring emotions and thinking and the role that they play and the influence they have on us. This is a fantastic and hugely approachable and engaging conversation, patterns gratitude and passion for this area is clear from start to finish. For the listener, it provides a clear framework for greater self awareness and reflection on the mechanics of how your own thinking patterns and decision making affect your everyday life. So Enjoy Bethan. Hello, and welcome back to wi rail. I’m your host Bryn Edwards, critical thinking and the role of thoughts and emotions and where we’re going to go to today with my guest, Beth and when Beth and welcome to the show.

 

Bethan 

Thank you excited to be here.

 

Bryn 

Excited to be here. Yeah. I mean, we first met through interacting on Instagram of all things. Yeah,

 

Bethan 

that’s right.

 

Bryn 

And then recently where we sparked up a discussion about the power of thoughts and the power of emotions. I think

 

Bethan 

I put a post that was like, thinking is the ultimate human resource. And you immediately jumped on and told me No, you’re wrong. It’s feeling I didn’t say

 

Bryn 

I think I mentioned something about power versus force and, and and emotions and stuff. And that is what we’ll dive into  in a bit.

 

Bryn 

So to start off with and one of the questions I like to ask all my guests is how They came to be in w A. So you moved here nine years ago. 2011. And what brought you here and why?

 

Bethan 

work, my husband’s work. We were living in London, and I was teaching high school. He was working in the city. And we were thinking, gosh, this is quite hard work and quite stressful.

 

Bryn 

London.

 

Bethan 

Yeah. And particularly teaching, I loved it, but it was, you know, very little time off in the time and stuff. So we were looking at our options. We were going to go we’d read Tim Ferriss, four hour workweek and we’re going to go and live on a beach in South America and all this and then my husband said, oh, there’s a little bit more credit card debt than I think you know about that right? Well, we need you to get a job and so yeah, he put his CV out there and we thought Sydney or Melbourne perhaps but yeah, Perth. Someone came back within a couple of days offered him a job. pretty much straight away. And we said, Sure, why not? Looks nice. There’s sunshine and beaches. And let’s give it a try. And it was as simple as deep as

 

Bryn 

that. Pretty much.

 

Bethan 

Yeah, we thought, well, let’s just go and try it. Yeah. So with the intention of coming for a year or so going back to get married, we just got engaged for we left and nine and a bit years later here, we are still here. Tell me

 

Bryn 

about the transition to move in here because it’s very similar, but very different all at the same time.

 

Bethan 

Yeah, yeah. I thought it would be basically the same. You know, I’ve got family in Adelaide and Queensland that we visited before. So

 

Bryn 

everyone speaks English. It’s part of the Commonwealth, just England on a sunny day all the time. Yeah.

 

Bethan 

But it was very good from a cultural perspective for me to be challenged on little things like the postcodes, like where are the letters and the postcode

 

Bethan 

swearing on the radio. Yeah, just talking about.

 

Bethan 

So you know, on the BBC, none of it very clean your radio one is aimed at the same audience as Triple J, for example, but there’s no swearing, if you swear, you get in trouble. That’s how it used to be. Whereas over here, you know, got my kids in the car, and I’m regularly like, oh, gosh, stop the station. There’s all sorts of naughty words and topics come out. So yeah, it’s just funny little things like that. And what I do really like about PR, it’s different from the UK is, how friendly people are and how they’ll take the time to just have a little chat. You know, when you’re ordering your coffee, or Woolworths, or whatever. I think in the UK, particularly in London, it was very much like, you walk into a shop and you say, can I have whatever? Or you’re just paying and you’re like, please and thank you, us, of course, because we’re British. Obviously. There’s not there are Hey, how’s your day going? And You know, and there’s a lot more independent businesses out here, like small coffee shops and stuff. And so you see those people over and again, and I really like that. And I’ve noticed the difference when I go home. Yeah, how cold and transactional? A lot of those interactions can be whereas here, you know, this is more of a relaxed. How’s it going by? Yes. Nice. You know, sometimes they will Oh, it’s a bit fake or whatever. But yes, sometimes you get some really funny conversations with people. It’s Yes, fun.

 

Bryn 

So is it Oh, now?

 

Bethan 

on my mobile phone home is still my mom’s house in Wales. But

 

Bethan 

yeah, I don’t know. It’s definitely transitioned. Yeah,

 

Bryn 

yeah. Yes. Oh, TV.

 

Bethan 

Yeah. And you know, my kids are born here and stuff. So we’re not planning to move back anytime soon. Yes, yeah.

 

Bryn 

And you get the opportunity to pull out your wealth very often here.

 

Bethan 

Room not so much. I think I know one person. I am one person here that speaks Welsh fluently, and one of a good friend of mine is actually from Anglesey as well, but his Welsh is pretty rusty. But I speak Welsh to my mom on the phone and some school friends on WhatsApp and stuff but texting in Welsh and what’s happening and what takes a lot longer because well, I just the autocorrect changes everything. So you have to like type it out

 

Bryn 

on the language on iPhone?

 

Bethan 

I think so. I’m not sure my friends at home would know better than me. There are like spellcheck for Welsh obvious, yeah, and lots of programmes and apps that are in Welsh. But yeah, I don’t use them. I do read Welsh books to my kids write regularly so they know. You know, their colours and their numbers and

 

Bryn 

just simple things. I see stuff. Yeah. So As well as being a mom and a wife, even teacher trainer, fascinated in people to where they think, learn, do life. Yeah. Where does that come from? In the Beth and journey story

 

Bethan 

and I teachings a great thing to do like I think I’m a very social people kind of person. And you know, just love talking and chatting to people. Particularly, you know, being off work with kids going from talking to people interacting with people all day every day to spending a lot more time at home with Yeah, you got Oh, actually people like me need people. Yeah. The idea of sitting at home by myself writing sounds quite romantic. But actually, I would not last a day. I don’t. Yeah, I am. Yeah. And so you know, you’re at home with the with the kids. You can go a whole day without seeing another adult sometimes. And those are not good days for me, like I really thrive on social interaction. And I think I’ve been reflecting on that a lot more over the last few years as well. And how people are not designed, like, you know, if you think about primitive times, if you were by yourself, you wouldn’t survive, you need your tribe, you need your group to support each other. And you know, mobile phones are great from a communications point of view, because you know, they’d be mothers group messaging each other throughout the day, it’d be like, somebody want to go to the park or to get coffee or whatever. So there is that support, but nothing quite replaces face to face interaction with people. No. I think you know, we talked previously about how great it can be to just sit down and have a real thoughtful conversation with someone. And we’re both in privileged situations where we get to do that. regularly? Yes. And yeah, that critical thinking stuff kind of came about because I was asked to write a course at work and Taylor’s college, which is connected to Wi Fi for the pre Master’s unit. And I was like, Hi, this is really interesting. It’s couple years ago, and I’m

 

Bryn 

of course was about critical thing.

 

Bethan 

Yeah, it was exactly that it was for sort of international students who wanted to go and do masters at UW, but like a bridging unit hasn’t actually come to fruition as of today, but, but I wrote the course and I carried on studying it, and I went to do more work on it. And then I was speaking to people who are going, that’s really cool. That’s really interesting. So that’s kind of where the business come from. And

 

Bryn 

yeah, it was like it really sort of little little flat fire inside of you.

 

Bethan 

Yeah, yeah, I think I always thought that I would do something a little bit different, but I didn’t quite know what that was going to look like. And I’m still figuring out what that looks like. But you It’s kind of fun experimenting and working out. You know, some people are kind of born to be teachers, like school teachers. And I never quite felt that, you know, I worked for Oxfam for a little bit after uni. And I’ve got another volunteer organisation. And then I did my teacher training and then kind of fell into that doing the high school thing in London and was like, this is really stressful. And hats off to the people that stick it out. And it’s still there, like, you need some rocks, those people that are just there for years in the same school and they’ve taught the moms and the dads and yes, teach the kids. I think that’s amazing. But it wasn’t, it wasn’t for me. So yeah, you know, I’ve been really lucky here working a tailor’s love working there and may well still go back but is on casual rolling contracts. I’m like, Well, you know, let’s try something and see what happens and

 

Bryn 

taking critical thinking out into the world as well.

 

Bethan 

Yeah, and It’s really fun, you know, like, like you do in your podcast, you get to meet really interesting people. And because it’s about reflection, you know, you get deep with people very quickly about their values and how they think what they prioritise in life. We talk about biases, arguments, fallacies, things like that, which is kind of philosophy but there’s also a bit of psychology, a bit of thinking patterns, system thinking stuff. And people are very open. I think most people will enjoy a good conversation if you sit down and say, Okay, I’m here to listen and put some frameworks on stuff but you know, spill your guts and people do and it’s really wonderful to connect with people like and and they make some big choices sometimes as a result of doing critical thinking training. I’ve had four people now I think, quit their jobs. Having done the call excellent.

 

Bethan 

I feel like I need to put a disclaimer on it like,

 

Bryn 

you know, I did earlier in my career. Many years ago, we delivered training that went deep into people. And it was Germany and call centres to be mobile phones and banks in the UK. And we had to put a disclaimer in there that if we do this, there’s a possibility that at least 5% of the people will choose to leave the job and start with my clients. Why? What? said, Well, that’s a good thing. Because then they shouldn’t be there.

 

Bethan 

Yeah, True. True. Yeah. It’s not me pushing these kids.

 

Bryn 

Yeah, it’s definitely them coming to their own realisation. Exactly. So before we dive into some of the stuff around critical thinking, like to explore and capture some of the things around a particular and decision making them biases and things people should know. Just to defer the question in terms of you and your relationship with critical thinking and you must have seen something in terms of an impact or felt something in terms of an impact when you first interacted with it when you were putting that course together in terms of the impact it can have out in the world with people individually and collective. What is that impact that you saw? Or you still see,

 

Bethan 

I guess it’s that

 

Bethan 

encouragement to reflect, I think, on big on, you know, community and connection with people. But we’re in such a kind of busy, fast paced, distracted environment most of the time, you know, mobile phones and trying to keep up with you know, exercise and eating well, and work and financials and everything.

 

Bryn 

stories we tell ourselves,

 

Bethan 

the stories we tell ourselves and and it’s very easy to just be caught up on that treadmill. And the thing that was most powerful for me was, it was Like an opportunity to stop and think and reflect on Okay, is this what I want to be doing? Is this the kind of life I want to lead? Is this where I want to be right now, with kids my age they are and with my husband and friendships and stuff. And so I saw that, for me was really useful and powerful. And then, you know, I’ve seen that in people that have done my training now as well. Oh, I hadn’t really thought about it. I was just caught up in the busy and the stress and there you go. There’s always a choice. Life doesn’t have to be, you know, this that way. Whatever you choose to be. You know, you don’t you might have a chance to win a coffee this morning. She’s saying I’m worried about my colleague who got made redundant. She’s just got this big mortgage, that she’s gonna have to pay by herself. I might well she could sell the house. You don’t have to live with that stress, then we kind of feel like that. We ought to sometimes or something, and, and it’s only when you sit back and go, hang on a minute, I can do this differently. You know? If it’s, if it’s not working, there’s always alternatives, you know. And, you know, if you go 30 years down the track, and you’ve been in the same job and you just grinding away, and then you wake up and go, Ah, how did I get here? This is not what I thought I would do. This is not how I thought my life would be. But if you don’t reflect, then you don’t kind of realise until later on. There’s a lot of power in that.

 

Bryn 

Taking a moment instead of going from A to B, A to B, A to B. Yeah. Going to see Yeah, she’s watching you go from A to B.

 

Bethan 

That’s a nice analogy. Yeah,

 

Bryn 

yeah. Reflecting on it. Yeah. And and taking stop. Yeah, a lot of some of the work that I did as a business consultant was the whole thing of pulling people from in the business to on the business. And it is that I always feel it’s morally incumbent upon everybody to spend at least a few minutes a day or 20 minutes a week reflecting on how you’re doing life. Because if it’s not working for you, what are you making yourself be? You know, he denied everybody else, the best version of you as well. It sounds a bit sort of coin crap, but it’s very much true.

 

Bethan 

Yeah, definitely. I find

 

Bryn 

I’ve got

 

Bethan 

similar to yourself here little community where I live and a lot of my neighbours in their 90s. And they’re amazing. Wow, I want to be like you and I get to your age. But I find that very useful as a reflection point, talking to them and going, you know, well, what’s your advice or what do you think?

 

Bryn 

Yes.

 

Bethan 

You know, I’ve got quite a few friends that are, you know, 10 2030 years older than me and I love just sitting with them and going what What’s it like for you at this stage? Or, you know, What do you remember about things? Or why did you choose that? And now the little pearls of wisdom they come out with gold. Yeah.

 

Bryn 

Absolute gold. Yeah, that’s half the reason why real to the oldest form of learning by shutting up and listening to the stories around me. Yeah. And and through that, I think you’ve tapped into something that I’ve long felt, which is that we don’t listen to those who are older than us. To read an article recently that that started, it’s our parents fault parents.

 

Bethan 

Name our parents.

 

Bryn 

It was because there was there was a fantastic article that pinned it on the children of the 60s, Hero light, stick it to the man if you’re older than 30 I don’t want to know about you. We’ve had enough of this authoritarian Yeah. Now it’s coming down, down and down. So we almost get to this point where you know, people buy I sometimes look at millennials and go, you know, and and but they’re just the next generation of I know it now. Yeah. And so yeah, but there is still power in coming out of yourself and listening to those that I know more be experienced more. And through that might be older than you. Oh,

 

Bethan 

yeah, I think, yeah, there’s a couple of things with that. Like, if you think you can only learn from someone that’s smarter than you, you’re missing out on a world of learning. Because, you know, maybe they’re not smarter than you at math, but maybe they’re great relationships.

 

Bryn 

Yeah,

 

Bethan 

you know, we all have very different strengths

 

Bryn 

they use across the board at school. So you might want to have a listen to exactly there and you’d like to

 

Bethan 

exactly that. Yeah. And what else did you just remind me of there?

 

Bethan 

Exactly what that was gonna say, but I’m

 

Bryn 

talking to all the people

 

Bethan 

yeah. We’re so stuck in our echo chambers. Yes. And you know, whether that’s social media or our workplaces? One of the things we’re on groups Exactly. We tend to gravitate towards people who are like us who share our values. One of the things I encourage people to do as part of my training is to engage with someone who thinks very differently to themselves. Because there’s a learning in that there’s, you know, you challenge your own views, you say, Why do I think that? Because we, you know, we all have opinions on a variety of topics, some of them that we very passionately hold. And we often form those opinions based on very little evidence. Yes, just a feeling or somebody told us once that this was the case. Oh, yes, yes, that’s definitely the case.

 

Bryn 

And solidified in there and you’ve grown on me.

 

Bethan 

Yeah. And, and so it’s very easy to dismiss someone who’s different from ourselves. But, you know, one of the fallacies that you know, teach is an ad hominem the person you can attack the person and say, Oh, I don’t know, Donald Trump. I don’t like Donald Trump.

 

Bryn 

So easy.

 

Bethan 

isn’t easy person. Yes, like, but it doesn’t mean that every single thing he says is rubbish. Yes. Because, you know, he might have some very valid ideas and other people feeding him some good ideas. So to dismiss everything that he says because he’s Donald Trump is losing out on the potential for an interesting, different perspective on something. Yeah. And likewise, you know, Barack Obama, people might be like, oh, Barack Obama is great. Everything he does is great. Yeah, he’s great. It’s great stuff he did. Exactly, yes. But also president grey, you know, it’s not black and white. There’s always this grey, messy middle. The

 

Bryn 

thing as well as introduce the concept of mental spaciousness, where you can engage in a discussion and Almost suspend your beliefs and yet still engage in the discussion. And part of it is is resisting the temptation to get triggered? Yes. In the discussion Yeah. But then look at it from the different sides and merits and sides what you’re going to take away you’re not in the get the best. The best example of of a discussion that would require mental spaciousness is discussing discussing the leadership style of Hitler.

 

Bethan 

Okay. Yeah. Because

 

Bryn 

we all know what he did and what he was responsible for yet, you look at the number of people that he mobilised and going and stuff and so from a leadership perspective, you have to start there. Yeah, he mobilise people to do amazing and amazing and terrible things, but he mobilised people

 

Bethan 

yeah. And

 

Bryn 

to engage in that discussion requires a large amount of mental spaciousness and it requires and the ability to sit and listen to other people. And, and I was introduced to the idea of different depths of listening. So the topic is, I listened to you, but it has to go through all my beliefs and values. And so we’ll compete a lot like you’ve just spoken about. But then there’s another depth of listening where you just open up and you shut up and you listen. And, and I do do it in the podcast. And the metaphor I use is like people will drop leaves. And instead of them being blown away in the wind of my beliefs and all of that, I allow them to settle gently in me and then I go, well, that stuff changes right now I am different from the start and end of a podcast. But through that, it means I get to take on board, try the T shirt on of somebody else and then have a look around.

 

Bethan 

Yeah, and that’s great. A great skill to have. I think and You don’t think it’s possible to do that all the time? No, it’d be so uncomfortable. No, but to put yourself into that mindset and go, right, I’m just gonna engage with this person or two to someone and you know, specifically set up and say, Hey, I would really like to listen to your views on this particular topic. And that kind of empathy. And, you know, they said, trying on their t shirt, walking in their shoes, whatever, whatever way you want to think about it. Isn’t it’s uncomfortable if they’re vastly different to you. But there’s a lot to be learned from that and why is that uncomfortable for you? And what values does it back up again, that you hold and why do they hold those values? What’s their life experience? What’s their cultural view, you know, there’s so much that goes into every single person, you know, up until right now this point in our lives. Every single experience has shaped who we are and what we believe. So unpacking that is really interesting and powerful to do. The

 

Bryn 

required for thought diversity. Yes,

 

Bethan 

yeah. That’s kind of the hashtag diversity. But yeah, absolutely. And, you know, other than

 

Bryn 

identity. Yes. For me personally.

 

Bethan 

Yeah. Yeah. And it’s valuable for personal development. But also, you know, for businesses, if you’re planning stuff. If you’re just with a bunch of Yes, people that going are great idea and you’re the boss, whatever, then you’re not challenging yourself, you’re not moving forward. And then when you all agree in your head off in one direction, you’re potentially missing out on this vast array of other options of things you could do or products or decisions you could be making as a business. And unless you experiment with those, then you kind of Yeah. Yeah, Sunny, dismissing other people that disagree with you is crazy today but yeah, we do it all the time.

 

Bryn 

So I think we’ve probably already started to cover them. What are some of the things that we should you take your we should know about critical thinking in terms of decision making biases and stuff like that. I think we’ve probably already covered them

 

Bethan 

where we’re starting to get there. Yeah, there’s some of the more formal aspects of critical thinking like cognitive biases, for example. So. So there’s a big list if you want to look it up on Wikipedia, but some of the more common ones. Confirmation bias, we’ve kind of touched on when, you know, you go, Oh, I think my knee hurts. I think I’ve got cancer of the knee.

 

Bryn 

Yes. All

 

Bethan 

symptoms of cancer of the knee. Go. Yes. Look, I take all these boxes. So you look for information to confirm what you already believe to be true. Yeah. So you know, that applies. to climate change, or whether whatever you think about Donald Yep. So you’ve already come up with what the best restaurant is, or, you know, we sort of seek the we and we listened to and give more gravity to information that supports what we already believe. Yes. And we all do it. So that’s

 

Bryn 

the echo chamber, right? Yes. Reality

 

Bethan 

Yeah. Something like status quo bias we are. As creatures, we prefer comfort over discomfort. And so if there’s a choice between keeping things as they are, or challenging ourselves and stepping out of that comfort zone, we tend to lean towards, you know, status quo, keeping things as they are, and that’s in business or in our personal lives and the choices we make we go, you know, don’t want to move house Miss houses, okay? So let’s just stick with this. And then the sunk cost bias is kind of similar to that if you’ve already invested time money into, you know, a relationship or property or a particular business decision, then we give more weight to sticking with that path.

 

Bryn 

There’s a firm attachment.

 

Bethan 

Yeah, yeah. And so I often hear these kind of stories coming from my husband back in town. So going around different places, and he’ll say, Oh, yeah, well, this project is going ahead and x million dollars has already been spent on it. It’s absolutely pointless, and nobody actually wants it to be done. But because this much has already been spent, they’re not going to reverse that decision. Yes, right. Feels like all the time. And actually, there’ll be another project that they’ve started which they’ve spent $30 million on it. Why are they bothering with this one, or Well,

 

Bryn 

I read an article that said to do with the build up of troops and NATO fault lines and things like that, whereby once you get a critical mass of troops and armoured personnel carriers and things in a certain area war is inevitable, right? Because they put that much stuff into it. It’s like, we gotta do something now.

 

Bethan 

Yeah, yeah, that’s exactly sunk cost bias. Well, yeah, we have to continue with this course of action because we thought, six months ago, it was a great idea right now. It’s a terrible idea. But, you know, let’s carry on anyway. Another one, anchoring bias is really powerful. So the first information that you receive, you give more weight to, yes. So this one’s great. Like, you know, if you’re in business, you think like, what price will I put on my product? If you go in and say, Okay, this is going to be $1,000. Over all right, okay. It’s worth $1,000. If you go in and say it’s $50, we’ve got all right, okay, it’s worth $50. And then if you want to then negotiate on that, you’ve already set the idea that it’s worth X amount. Yeah. So you know, negotiating on a house then. That’s the obvious one if the real estate agent says it’s worth a million dollars, yeah. Oh, wow. It must be worth that or close to that. But if they say it’s worth 700,000, and you’re going to come in with you 650 kind of offer. So that, you know, you see that all the time in marketing. So some of the biases and then fallacies is one of the other big areas that we touch points. I think I mentioned the ad hominem fallacy. You can sort of attack the person rather than looking at the arguments. Yes. And that weakens the ability to debate on something,

 

Bryn 

which is what we see a lot of in political debate. and stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. And then my father was over here recently, was lamenting the lack of proper wealth for thought through political debate. That is add on TV and radio.

 

Bethan 

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, we could blame the media or blame social media and the way that works or whatever. But the fact that we, you know, look at a person and judge Boris Johnson does his tire certain way, that means I’m not going to listen to his policies on education or whatever. Well, that’s a rubbish reason to dismiss an argument like that is the way someone’s dressed, for example, but we, you know, we do it all the time based on a visual thing or a story we might have heard. So it’s really common fallacy. And like I say, you see it in politics, particularly all the time. Another fun one is appeal to authority. So trying to win an argument by quoting an authority figure. But sometimes that authority figure is not an authority figure in that field. So you might say, oh, David Attenborough, he’s amazing. Yeah, it’s great man, really admire him, whatever. Do I really respect his judgement on I don’t know, underpants, buys his underpants Marks and Spencers. But um, yeah, that kind of argument. Go up, David. Amber. Thanks. It’s great. So it must be great that David Attenborough didn’t know about underpants.

 

Bryn 

I went through the interesting journey with that, whereby after, I think it was 70 or 80 episodes of doing w a real I’d sit and have discussions with people not at all. Yeah, but one of my podcast guests said this and one of my podcast guests at this one because I found myself I was talking through the experiences and things that I’d learned through my podcasts and and I had this realisation and I almost thought, quite common, so stop the podcast, and a very nearly dead I went through this for about two weeks, whereas I I’m gonna have stop it because Where’s Brennan? His voice? Right. Okay. Yeah. Where’s his opinion in the world? Yeah. And then so then after a while, I managed to put it all back into his box that this was still helping me to grow and expand. But now in discussions now I, it is my view and it is, you know, I do less quoting of

 

Bethan 

Yeah.

 

Bethan 

Those leaves and taking them on board Yes, to come your own little brain mulch.

 

Bryn 

I sort of instead of instead of viewing the podcast as this, almost like a new chapter in a book by which I can quote and come through, it is now more of an experience that changes me and opens me up and sees where the leaves lie. And so, you know, I talk through the mosaic of the llaves as it were nowadays, rather than the fact that somebody has given them

 

Bethan 

yeah.

 

Bryn 

Yeah, nice analogy to other fallacies that we have. Oh, slippery slope is quite a fun one literary slide.

 

Bethan 

So you know, if a happens then they will happen. So so I don’t know. If If you I don’t know, open a bottle of gin sitting next to you and have it have a smell, then you’re gonna have had 10 shots by lunchtime. waste it right? We could open it now and have a smell ago. Oh yeah, that’s gin and put it back and nothing else would happen. But if I say no, no, no, don’t open it because then you will open the floodgates to all this other awful unlikely stuff.

 

Bryn 

Yes,

 

Bethan 

then that’s the slippery slope fallacy. It’s trying to talk someone out of doing something.

 

Bryn 

Yes, Yes, a lot.

 

Bethan 

Like we’d say, you know, oh, we gonna talk about gateway drugs and stuff like that, you know, if you smoke pot, then you’ll be on cocaine by next week. You know, well, that’s highly unlikely. You can just choose at each point whether to continue. Sure, maybe some people end up down that path but lots of people don’t. But we we look at the extreme cases because they’re more kind of interesting. Oh my God, look, it happened to Uncle Steve or whatever. So we give more weight to those things and Lights, more dramatic outcomes. What else? Is there ad populum? Just because it’s popular doesn’t mean it’s correct. Oh, yeah. And it doesn’t mean it’s correct for you as well. So, you know, just because most people send their kids to private or public school, it doesn’t mean that you have to do it. So, you know, people that are doing unschooling or D schooling, whatever you call it, their children and homeschooling, good for them. Like they’ve obviously thought about that very much. And it’s a huge commitment. But to go against what the majority of people are doing is, it’s very brave, and they’re obviously making choices for them. And the same goes for, you know, shopping bullies or Kohl’s or working for a living in a sort of conventional environment. Yeah, so just because everyone else is doing it doesn’t mean it’s the right choice for you.

 

Bryn 

Yes, yeah.

 

Bethan 

uncomfortable to

 

Bethan 

stand out from the crowd in that way as well.

 

Bryn 

Yes. Yeah.

 

Bethan 

Yeah, there’s a bunch of fallacies. There’s a whole bunch more, but

 

Bryn 

yeah, we’ll probably move on to something else. So how do you so who so who your typical clients that will present and and how do you work with? How do you take things like that and then work with them?

 

Bethan 

Hmm. Okay. I totally have a typical client in terms of gender or age anyway, but they’re normally just people that are curious. And transition points often. Yeah. So you know, quite a few people I’ve worked with are sort of moms or dads who have young children because they’re still figuring out how to navigate this new life that they’re in. But also, you know, business owners or the People in corporate environments it can be anything really. But they Yeah, they’re often looking for something, you know? Yes, they’re they’re trying to figure something out for themselves. And so the courses

 

Bethan 

seems to appeal to that.

 

Bryn 

Yeah. Part of someone is

 

Bethan 

making transitions whatever that transition may be.

 

Bethan 

And then yeah, just because of you know, my lifestyle and how things go, you know, lunchtime or morning time is a good time for me to do workshops or in the evening after seven o’clock so it’s people who have a longer lunch break. Yes. Or people who have small children that are in bed by seven sort of thing. But ya know, different people retired people again, they’re trying to navigate what retirement looks like for them and what they want to do now that they’ve not got work anymore. Yeah, all sorts people, and then was

 

Bryn 

really getting a feel of how the right thinking patterns are keeping them in one place, and they can be more expansive to open up. opportunities and possibilities. Yeah. to them.

 

Bethan 

Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of people come in ruminating on something. And then we go through a bit of a process and and then they take those big steps because in their gut, they know they want to make a change, whatever that may be. And they almost seeking permission and logical arguments to support this gut feeling they might have that something’s not quite where they want it to be. And we’ll talk about that got fail in a minute. But yeah, one of the in terms of decision making, look, you know, there’s all sorts we kind of reframe what is good and bad, and an outcome, you might say to someone earlier, who’d been made redundant and say, oh, wow, that’s that’s bad. That’s a bad thing. happen. But then the opposite kind of other side of that coin is, you know, she’s got three weeks off, and she’s actually already got another job which may well be better may take her other places. We can, you know, there’s not alternative universes that we have access to at least you know, don’t get into the physics of it all but, you know, we never know what the other path would have looked like. Yes, we can guess or dream or say oh, you know, shoulda woulda coulda done x y Zed, but we just have to kind of make the best of where we’re at, which is life really. So saying, okay, you know, if we didn’t know someone was getting divorced. Yeah, well, that’s all that’s terrible, but then maybe they’ll meet someone else down the track and be much happier. Yeah, exactly. So I love the Shakespeare quote from Hamlet, nothing is either good or bad, but thinking makes it so that’s how you approach something and the kind of frame you Look at it through.

 

Bryn 

And another thing that I learned versus inherently meaningless.

 

Bethan 

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Another useful matrix that I use with people is how consequential something is and how reversible it is. So something like getting a tattoo you go, well, it’s fairly irreversible. But if I really wanted to, I could get it removed. Yeah. How consequential It is, in the grand scheme of things, probably not that much. I don’t know what the consequences will be. Maybe I’ll see someone on the beach, they’ll notice the tattoo I got, oh, you’ve got that tattoo. We should talk. Mine’s the same. Yeah, we’re friends for life or something. You know, you never know what the consequences will be. But in terms of like, massive life changing stuff, it’s probably not that big a deal. Something like getting married is fairly consequential and yes, big scheme of things. But this is reversed Yeah, whereas having a child with someone, there’s a lot, you know, you’re always going to be connected to that person. So I think like,

 

 

making babies

 

Bethan 

are probably the big, obvious, irreversible things that so many other stuff. We think, oh, I’ve made this choice. And now I’m stuck with this choice forever, but often we’re not. And so, I encouraged this kind of more playful attitude of like, Well, why don’t we just experiment with it? You know, gluten free diet or something? Why don’t you just try it out? See what happens. If you don’t? If it makes no difference? I’m great. But what’s the cost of experimenting? And if the cost isn’t that great and give it a try, you know, and just have fun with it because you never know where that path will lead. So yeah, I think being a bit playful with our decisions and not stressing too much about the consequences is

 

Bethan 

kinda nice but don’t be irresponsible.

 

Bethan 

Yeah, sorry. I’m gonna go and do this thing. Yeah, I’m gonna go bungee jump with rope rather than elastic. Not that kind of playful. But, you know, within reason, like just try out Why not? what’s what’s the what you got to lose?

 

Bryn 

So where in the framework of this do feelings and emotions?

 

Bethan 

Okay, yeah, we’ve got our big notes on this.

 

Bethan 

So from the thinking, kind of academic perspective, the part for me where it kind of makes sense is if we think about feeling in terms of gut feelings, yeah. And then thinking as a more cerebral response to things. And Daniel condiments academic has done a lot of work on this got a Nobel Prize for smart

 

Bethan 

and he labels

 

Bryn 

Oh, yeah. He’s got a PhD in lots of letters after his name. Yeah, good point. See what I’ve done that I’ve laid the chop

 

Bethan 

invoke his authority. Yeah. But um, so he has a book Thinking Fast and Slow. And he talks about system one thinking system to thinking. And if you think about system one, it’s our intuitive, quick, automatic, but quite biassed thinking patterns and system to his own more logical, slow, cautious, perhaps a little bit less biassed thinking patterns that more deliberate thinking. And so just to sit on the fence in terms of which is stronger the way that he explains it is like your system one is it’s like an elephant. It’s a really powerful, really strong and it drives a lot of things and just kind of get away with it. So think about like that’s the elephant system two is the Much cooler elephant trainer. And so imagine awareness circus or whatever system to can control system one, if it wants to. But it has to be quite focused in order to do that yes. And system to thinking can get tired. If we’re overwhelmed, or there’s too many decisions in a day, and this is this kind of decision fatigue, we go off bucket, I don’t I don’t care anymore, I’m just gonna have a beer or eat the chocolate or whatever. Like he makes an analogy that system one light system, one’s got a sweet tooth. We’re trying to control this kind of more primitive way of thinking that actually controls a vast majority of our choices that we make every day. So yeah, I think our emotions are really powerful. The fact that we have to kind of consciously keep them in check. I have to consciously try and override our kind of slightly more lazy system. One Go No Actually, I do want to get out of bed or I do want to go to this class or I do want to focus on this thing when system wants to pull us back to, you know, a meeting our more primitive need for like energy or conserving energy and being comfortable and all those things. So that was the kind of thinking angle is the system one

 

Bryn 

was like a protective layer,

 

Bethan 

I guess. Yeah, some of its choices would be

 

Bryn 

because we have a lot of we find that we build a lot of layers of protection. And then and then we have these responses to them whether their flight freeze, yeah, for Yeah. And, and and a lot of our depression anxieties, whether they are clinical or Every day, sort of acceptable level, to a degree are born out of these protections and the responses to them. And not many of us will have one big massive trauma event in our life. But we’ll have a bajillion small trauma so ended with complex traumas. And to those we develop response patterns which are part of that system one Yeah, and it’s very much protective. Yeah, had our protect myself from a perceived threat or even not even a perceived threat, but it becomes a betrayal triggered response. which then means that we have was introduced the concept of emotional flashbacks, so we don’t flashback to one big scary event. We flashback to the flu. depression can come about from a great sense of overwhelm and not wanting to do anything. Anxiety is a I must do something. gotta go, gotta go, I gotta go, I gotta go. And I’ve been told this a lot because from somebody who used to be very active, swam to Rochester triathlons played burpees. I just switched off from exercise recently. And that’s because I was finding that most of my exercise was driven out of anxiety. Right, okay. I didn’t want to get Oh, I don’t want to get fired. And, and it was just getting so buddy fatiguing. And then as soon as I actually vocalise that with some of the people that I know, and several other people, particularly men, but I do always like, end of the day Chicago get white session and otherwise I’ll lose a bit of my strength. This, the other I need to be. And that’s just one example. And so I arrived, I think when I read your post on Instagram, where I was at was I, I’ve been at a place where I feel like the the mind people say the mind is very powerful. I would argue that the mind is very forceful. Okay? Yeah. Right. And that in our deeper essence, in our heart, wherever it is, I’m quite located it is where our true power lies. And the power is always that but our mind and the system one protective thinking is very forceful. So the best analogy I could give you would be if you take the ocean, the ocean is always there and moves is a big powerful weight of water that moves around and can do things. We can have storms and tempers on the top and they were Destruction but then they’ll disappear the ocean will always remain and so, power is always there. It can be quiet, it can be strong, it can be very present noisy but then force will come and go and I find that I find that our minds and possibly your system one thoughts are the tempest that is the force yet you system to is always present. And it’s the power if we can drop more into that and out of our learned emotional responses to protect ourselves. That’s where we can harness more of our power.

 

Bethan 

I think the other way around. Yeah, but yeah, yeah, your system too is the logical reason. Yes, sir. Yeah, yeah. I kind of get what you mean. Yeah, because I do. System one is the ocean and and system two is the Stuff trying to do stuff on top

 

Bryn 

of Yeah, because I’ve had this interesting experience where logical, logical brain, right? Because your brain has been very successful in life today. He did very well at school. He very well university where it’s all about get things right don’t get things wrong look smart. All of those things and and then I became a business consultant for 15 years. Same thing. Look right look smart don’t look stupid. And I look like you’re worth a day right? Uh huh. And and just a recent it’s just got fucking tiring. Yeah, I struggle I can’t do it and as I consider moving from that world, to another world, built off the podcast and build legacy and stuff like that. Now instead of offering smart bread to the marketplace, which I know everyone can control and staff and presents and delivers now, I’m offering all of And I’m delivering an experience and I don’t know what the outcome is. And it’s scary. I jumped into the abyss for a while with it. But I guess that’s what’s made me quite acutely aware of my riddles to talk to you about thinking and failing and now all of a sudden I’m accessing all these feelings. And, and I’m not so scared of being angry. Because previously for me, man plus anger equals destruction. So I get very scared of it. Because I didn’t want to destroy things. And but now find man plus anger channelled appropriately is the fire that gets a lot of shit done.

 

Bethan 

Yeah, well that she can channel those feelings that can be incredibly yeah

 

Bryn 

for Yeah, as opposed to what Britain is. Box gets tiring.

 

Bethan 

I just find actually the first I ran this course

 

Bethan 

with a few people who were a bit older than myself, who maybe hadn’t been brought up on that, you know, feelings are okay. It’s okay to cry and it’s okay to feel sad or traumatised or whatever. It really, you know, just week one we dug into a bit of why we do certain things what what’s created those habits, those patterns in our thinking and cheese, the you know, just asking why a few times like a kid would do Oh yeah, why three, four levels of 134 levels was like opening a massive pit of complex stuff that I was surprised and wasn’t quite expecting and I think surprised some of those people too. And the need to unpack that a little bit and you know, I’m not a counsellor. I think as a teacher, there are elements of, you know, listening, counselling people a little bit Yeah, those those feelings. You found big emotional release. Yeah. Oh yeah, people were telling me all sorts of things, which was beautiful. And I felt really privileged to, you know, listen to them and give them space to do that. But I was Yeah, I was quite surprised and how much it unpacked for people even just that simple. Why? led to quite a big epiphany for people. But again, I think it’s coming to that they’ve chosen to do something like critical thinking because there’s this gut feeling of I need to

 

Bryn 

Yeah, deal with that was interesting. Got failing. Critical thinking. And, and yeah, and don’t get me wrong. I didn’t. I didn’t want to have you on the podcast so I could go right. To feelings of way, way better than thought is no, no, no, because we have them both. Yeah. And they have that role and they have that place. I think if we can understand them. More we can how how would you say is harnessing both?

 

Bethan 

I think I did like a few different people from a psychology perspective came at me and said, Well, obviously the sort of structures thoughts control feelings and feelings control actions, and that action then determines your behaviour. And then obviously, your behaviour then determines your whole life. And the people that were coming with that are from

 

Bryn 

fairly academic

 

Bethan 

Yeah, in a fairly like logical Yeah, point of view.

 

 

Where

 

Bryn 

has overlooked feelings?

 

Bethan 

Probably Yeah.

 

Bryn 

I mean, I came on two degrees in psychology were like 17 and 20 years ago,

 

Bethan 

right. Okay, but

 

Bryn 

they tend to be sort of murky and less predictive, predictable. Yeah, yeah. And even just listening to What you said that in as it, we have these thoughts that make feelings that make actions well. You can speak to anyone in sales and marketing, they will tell you that you sell off emotion.

 

Bethan 

Oh, absolutely, yeah. And then

 

Bryn 

you logically justify it afterwards. So, you know, you come back within, you know, nothing comes back with a new pair of shoes, right?

 

Bethan 

Yeah. That’s an emotional purchase completely hundred

 

Bryn 

percent. Yeah. Then when you go and show, Mr. When you go. Yeah, I really needed these new shoes. Can you know because they’re, they’re yellow, not like the red ones. And they go with it. And so it’s all logical, logical. And there were a deal. Yeah. You know, reduced from 120 down to 30. I couldn’t not have. Yeah, but then let’s be honest. Really. You looked at them? They lit you up. Yeah. And you bought them? Yeah. So yeah. And sales and marketers know this.

 

Bethan 

And that’s why storytelling is so trendy at the moment. They are seems to be from my LinkedIn and stuff like everyone’s about about telling that story yes and even science communication I was teaching for a while taylorism trying to create a narrative around your discovery or and why it’s important or how it’s going to change people’s lives connects your idea to people much more strongly than and, and and which is what we tend to do with scientific information. There’s more, there’s more, there’s more. Yes, we overcomplicate it, so something like climate change science, which you know, we should all be going constantly like feeling emotionally about shit that this is happening and it’s real and the fires are such to me clear evidence that something’s not not as it was or as it should be in the world. That we can tell ourselves stories are no but it’s it’s a freak thing or whatever and it’s really uncomfortable to go actually look at the science Behind climate change, we should all be like Guttenberg going, I’m fucking panicking. And I’m worried for my kids, but it’s too hard to deal with the emotion is too much. It’s too scary. It’s too uncomfortable to face the truth of that. And so we go, there we

 

Bethan 

go look at my shoes. Exactly.

 

Bryn 

We fly away and avoid Yeah, or phrase and avoid. And then we build a story, which makes us feel better. Yes, is otherwise known as a lie. And we tell ourselves lies and then we believe those lies

 

Bethan 

and the stories we tell ourselves.

 

Bethan 

Yeah,

 

Bryn 

yeah. So I feel better to move ourselves into a better place of feeling.

 

Bethan 

Yeah. I did have some interesting discussions with people who are more kind of spiritual yoga, mindfulness background, and they were much more like feelings, absolutely feelings. Because they’ve, you know, witnessed themselves and other people. What happens when you try and control your feelings, particularly something like grief? Or love, perhaps like trying to bury them down? Then they can manifest physically, your people. Or another lady I spoke to the day she’s talking about a session where she just cried the whole yoga session, because there was stuff going on she wasn’t dealing with. And in that safe space, you know, logically, she was like, Well, I’m present. I’m here. I’m doing yoga. Nothing’s wrong right now. But there was so much other stuff going on that she’d been dampening down that it just all came out and just just crying for an hour about she didn’t know why she couldn’t stop herself. Yeah, yeah, that’s what happens. I mean, you just bury thing. Yeah.

 

Bryn 

She can’t contain that energy. It’s got to go somewhere. Yeah, and the fine Emotions are very much like energetic. has to go somewhere. Yeah, try and push it down this at the other so yeah, physically manifested in elyes and your body will just come out and it’ll be on tidy. Yeah. We get scared of untidy though.

 

Bethan 

Yeah, yeah,

 

Bryn 

that’s true. I’m telling you this can be necessary.

 

Bethan 

Yeah, I think I do, like physical release of, you know, if you’re feeling stressed or angry, you’re doing my exercise before I’m really into exercise, I think such a good feeling when you’re pissed off at something or someone and you can just punch something or run really fast and just release it in that way. And I saw all the time with my students back in London, you know, there were teenage girls, and a lot of them weren’t, you know, they were into kind of dancing or other things but they there was a lot that weren’t particularly sporty, and then they were A lot in you know quite small flats, small spaces, you know, they’d like walk to school or whatever but if they weren’t doing some kind of sport or the army cadets was very popular with them then you could see this kind of frustration in them and then occasion that would just explode out with some of them you know, really lovely girls super polite and then occasionally just have this like, so looking angry. Yeah, take it out on me is there for them to to know that. Whoa, where did that come from? And then they feel bad about it. So I know it wasn’t.

 

Bryn 

Yeah. And then they’ll get into another spiral that contains it.

 

Bethan 

Yeah, yeah. She had another friend was talking about, from her perspective, working with young people. If there was something in their childhood or adolescence, some kind of trauma then those people generally speaking, generalisation is a fallacy, but generally speaking would have more trouble controlling their feelings. Then someone who’s had a fairly stable, steady loving childhood and adolescence. So to say, you know, oh yeah, definitely this are definitely that is a false dichotomy of black and white. Yes, feelings or Yes, thoughts. It depends completely on the person and how they’ve been brought up. I think you can learn to manage things differently. I don’t want to say better because who’s to say which is productively? Yeah, perhaps more productively, but then again, productivity like this back to that rat race mentality? Oh, is it better to be an A star student and then, you know, first at university and a high paying job, if that’s not where you want your life to go? Then it’s only your own story that you’re telling yourself like, Oh, I have to be like this. So then to pivot and go and, you know, do podcasts and other things. Maybe That’s a better choice in the end, but because of the stories we tell ourselves is how I should do this. I should be productive. I should. Yes, yeah. And if you’re shooting on stuff, rather than wanting Yeah, then start to ask some questions. I think

 

Bryn 

that’s a great source of anxiety. Oh, you think some of the dividing cultures and the systems in place are overly focused on thought, logical thought, as opposed to the inclusion of some sort of emotion failing? I mean, the best example I can give you would be one that’s quite personal to me is like legal system. legal system is very left hand side of the brain logical Rational stuff yet when you get an instance is a high of the family court that’s flippin emotional a lot of kids in bold and stuff like and yet you’re expected to purchase picture in the Justin logical manner what’s going on over here? Yeah, and and it I don’t know I feel like there is that’s just one example but I feel like there’s lots of things that have logically made sense but don’t quite really work anymore.

 

Bethan 

Yeah, such a good question, huh? I think I heard your interview with the lady who dealt with Divorce Law a couple weeks ago and she was saying similar thing about you know, all you need to kind of from word but divorce the emotion from the trailer actions. Yeah. And and I think traditionally that more logical reasons. ideas have been rewarded by society. But there’s

 

Bryn 

a few and I growing up in the UK.

 

Bethan 

Yeah. Oh, yeah. And, you know, I think that’s shifting a little bit, but it’s still not quite there.

 

Bethan 

For me personally Anyway, you know, the fact that

 

Bethan 

Prince Harry and Prince William have come out as the royal family going, Oh, mental health is important, and we have to talk about it. Then, you know, when I was struggling as a new teacher, and I, you know, went to the doctor and said, I think I’m depressed I’m crying all the time. I was essentially just exhausted, which was one of the triggers for us to you know, look at alternatives. I didn’t run to my employer and say, Hey, guys, become a bit depressed I could do some time welfare mental health because I was so into what My students need me and the school needs me and if I take two weeks off then it’s going to like shit on all my colleagues because they’ll have to cover and I have to plan ahead and stuck in that I should I need to I’ve tried to kind of thing and partly that’s values right it comes back to me not wanting to you know, let people down or not wanting to admit weakness in that particular context. Because you can imagine bunch of teenagers they go Oh, where’s Miss? Oh, she’s she’s at home crying. Try and come back halfway through term with that and they’re all pissed off. They haven’t done their GCSE essays or whatever. You know, me now I’d say Well, that was brave to do but I wasn’t brave enough at the time if I’d done that I just carried on and and, you know, showed up, did the best that I could at the time and you know, still was giving my all because I really cared about it. And so there’s that lesson as well you know about the balance of how much of yourself you’re willing to sacrifice for whatever the outcome is professionally or for the community or whatever it is that you’re doing for your family. Something a lot of moms struggle with is, you know, if you are giving 100% to looking after your family, then there’s nothing left for your own mental emotional, physical health. And so you see moms that are like oh, you know, I stopped exercising or I just eat whatever I drink more wine or whatever it is to cope with. You know, what is a daily balancing, juggling ridiculous plate spinning x, that is Parenthood, but is life really for a lot of people but you know, putting my kind of mom perspective on that is Yeah, you need to kind of get the balance right. I suppose. There is no perfect.

 

Bryn 

No there isn’t this what works for you? Yeah, exactly. But I’ll just come into this. I was thinking about that and well, a previous podcast guest Richmond he brought tremoring the UK to Australia which is about bringing on involuntary tremors so we fight flight freeze. But our fight and flight is not actually punching or running away. All of them are tend to be stationary and so tremoring is about the rest of the mammals in the animal kingdom do releasing trover and stuff for everybody. It’s been I’ve been doing it for a year it’s been my secret weapon. Anyway, so I had reason to exchange messages with Richmond the other day or find him up and then the usual thing phone tag. And then he rings justify I’m about to go into a meeting right. And, and this made me think about the summer antics we use in life. Because I said, Hey, rich man can talk now just about to head into a meeting. But let’s talk in an hour, he sent a message straight back, say, Sure, let’s talk in an hour. But wouldn’t it be great if we hearted into a meeting rather than headed into a meeting? Do you think we’d get more done? And unlike it’s really small, but at the same time, it’s huge. You know, we see a lot of our lexicon and everyday languages is thought orientated.

 

Bethan 

Yeah, I find that fascinating. And they say, you know,

 

Bethan 

Gardner’s multiple intelligence. So the way that we learn might be kinesthetic, you know, the physical touching things might be seeing things for other people. It’s auditory hearing things. So things like that influence the language we use, like oh, I see what you mean. It’s more likely they say yeah, theory.

 

 

Yeah, sure. Yeah,

 

Bethan 

yeah. Or I hear what you’re saying is auditory. And so it’s how we kind of perceive the world. Yes. But you’re absolutely right though the way that you frame something. Like we were saying that I’ve got to do this thing, or I should do that, I need to do this. And if you say Actually, I want to because I get to I get to Yeah, you know, I’m putting the washing on the line. And I can be like, Oh, God, I hate putting the wash notice. And then I got what now I get to wash my children’s and husbands and my own clothes with clean water and soap and I get to look after them. I get to see them every day, I get to do this small act of love, which is what they always are, as you know, it’s hard to remember those things and I can put on some funky music and sing along to it in my backyard and my neighbour across the fence while I’m doing it and make it Something more joyful, you know? And sure, you know, there’s days where you’re like, oh, Crikey, copy. Yeah. But trying to reframe things from that gratitude and joy and you know the luck of where we’re at. Yeah, really nice to do sometimes. So yeah, you get to be in the sunshine and yeah. And I, you know, got the time to do it rather than, you know, being frantic. I’ll put it in a tumble dryer, often, those little things, those conveniences that we choose can take away like a small joy. You know, I love riding my bike. And I want to try and build that more into my daily routine and like crying to kids with me often as well. But doing that instead of driving the car, the kids love it. It’s an adventure. They’re outside. I get the wind in my hair, I get exercise. I might see someone I know when you’re just like, rushing from A to B, you don’t stop and do those. Things you know? Yes. So yeah, finding the reframing things can be really nice. And a nice reminder that you get to do something you chose this life, you know, so yeah,

 

Bryn 

to do your choosing.

 

Bethan 

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

 

Bryn 

Where do you think who would be if? Everybody watch to write down if everybody did the bathroom with critical thinking, Oh gosh. 2.6 million or 2.7 million? We put them all through. Wow.

 

Bethan 

That’s really difficult to answer without putting my own biases on it. Because it’s almost like well, what would you like it to be like? Yeah. I think we would

 

Bryn 

pause this podcast is the freedom to Yeah, show your bias.

 

Bethan 

I think we would need to seriously look at mining and energy production, and I don’t know how we transition From you know because Perth is so built on that as an economy

 

Bethan 

so we need to

 

Bethan 

I think we would be looking at the future and saying this is not sustainable we need to explore the alternatives right now and that’s my own personal kind of view on it I think from I think people would work fewer hours I think working part time is that if people choose to continue to work they’re all quit their jobs

 

Bethan 

because

 

Bryn 

oh yes cuz you you ruffle up the entire employment sector. Yeah, yeah.

 

Bethan 

But

 

Bethan 

no, everybody I meet people all different values and perspectives on it. But there seems to be a lot of people caught up in the you know, the big house but Australia has some of the biggest houses in the world and needing to pay the mortgage on those so it’s insane reality. society as a whole, we’re all complicit in this rat race that we’ve created. And before I had children, it was like, well, you work full time. And that’s just what you do. It’s only taking some gaps. And, you know, my husband and I have each had long kind of stints off work to play with other ideas and try other things. Because, you know, we chose a small house, we chose a smaller mortgage. And we chose to put ourselves in a position where we could do those things. And yeah, I think not everyone, but quite a few people would just change how they put their lives together. The Deuce or pieces that they choose to include. Yeah, and I’m me personally, I think I would love to see more, you know, connection with people in the community. Not this kind of, Oh, I’m too busy. You know, I love by nothing. Facebook groups and I’m part of repair lab. And you know, we might start a manager as of this evening, which is like, Oh, God, you know, but also what a privilege, you know, I get to help my neighbours and look after them. And I wouldn’t be in a situation to take that on if I was busy working all the time. Yeah. So and the community that we’ve created in my little strata is beautiful. And, you know, having fish and chip Fridays, and just taking a moment to check on them or have a chat. Little things like that are actually what make people happy, I think, at the end of the day, small pleasures. And so if we didn’t work as many hours and have this, oh, yeah, I’ve got to be on and, you know, I chose to start my own business because I thought that it would be more flexible with the children and it is to some extent, but there’s this self created pressure of, Oh, I need to be posting on multiple social media platforms are I need to be meeting everybody who wants to for coffee and I have to really put boundaries on that myself. Yes, yeah, right, I’m actually I’m just gonna switch my phone off for a couple of hours and really do a thoughtful, longer piece of writing, or I’m going to connect with my husband or I’m gonna play with my kids. Because it can be very easy to get dragged in all directions. You know, no matter I think what life you’re leading, there’s always like external pressures constantly trying to, you know, you feel like you’ve got to honour in some way and it takes a bit of guts to go, actually, no, today. This is these are my values. This is what I want to focus on. And this is what I will feel good about at the end of the day, and it’s generally not those. They’re all annoying kind of things that are pulling at you. It’s that whatever’s you whatever is Your most important thing right? you value the most, which is different for everybody. Hmm,

 

Bryn 

what have you learned about yourself through doing all of this? Oh god.

 

Bethan 

What about myself? I am just as susceptible to distraction and

 

Bethan 

people pleasing sometimes and trying to

 

Bryn 

tell us his bias

 

Bethan 

and fat. Oh, absolutely. The more you learn about them, the more you realise that you do them. Yeah. And I think it’s called a Diane Kruger effect something you know, you think you know a lot about something and then you learn a bit and you go, Oh, crap. I know nothing. I’m Jon Snow. I’m right down here. Yeah. And so I’m slowly going back up this scale, but

 

Bethan 

I am loving the process.

 

Bethan 

So much. I don’t know if you saw my really selfie posts there. is my birthday the other day and I was like trying to do a little reflection about values or something. And I just kept crying but happy crying. And I’m so fucking lucky and grateful to be in this position where I’m learning and growing and it’s uncomfortable a lot and I’m sure you find this right you try something new him doing a podcast like, Oh, dude, a podcast. Yeah, but, but this has been so enjoyable and yeah. Yeah, I feel really privileged to be doing it. And, and I’m, you know, we’re all human. And I’ve really learned how valuable those connections are and just having a nice conversation. Just so so lovely. And you don’t do that very often. If you’re just caught up in the busy during during during Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly.

 

Bryn 

What do the next three to five years long Vote for better days plans.

 

Bethan 

I want I want to sort of slowly grow during this critical thinking stuff, decision making whatever it’s going to look like. And, you know, my children have sort of a big influence on my time and what’s available, so they will gradually transition to full time school and stuff. So really looking forward to just shipping them both to one location for a particular time picking them both up. Yeah, same location, because, yeah, you know, just delivering bodies to various locations takes up a lot of time. But you know, this thinking time in that, and it’s been a privilege that I can do that and I’m lucky to do that. But yeah, no, I think just sort of building on the blocks I’m laying down. Yeah.

 

Bryn 

And what is Beth and do, to stay grounded and amongst all this critical thinking,

 

Bethan 

I try and journal regularly. I think that’s really valuable, really useful thing to do.

 

Bryn 

Is that expanding on thoughts and feelings, or today I did.

 

Bethan 

I’ve got two types of journal. So one is a sentence a day thing. So just three little lines. And that’s very nuts and bolts, I just write down what I’ve done in the day, like bullet points. And I like that, because it’s a three year one, I can look back and go, Oh, this time last year, I did this. And my days when you go through it, and through it, yeah, yeah. So I’ve gone through two of those already. And I’ve just started a new one. And I love that looking back and going, Oh, we were here. We were there. And, and, you know, basically when I was at home with the kids, like each day looked quite different. Be like, Oh, we went to this playground with this person, or I caught up with them. And now it’s like, oh, I went for coffee with this person off LinkedIn or I met this video, Instagram and you know, we did a workshop together. So that’s quite fun, you know, saying How its evolved. But I will say do you like longer journaling? where it’s like, secret? If I’m feeling a bit stressed about something, then I’ll just go Yeah, why? Why am I feeling like this? What’s the Yeah. So I guess that’s probably my most grounding thing that I do.

 

Bryn 

And the last question that I ask all my guess is, if you could take a little nugget of information and upload it into the collective consciousness, what would that be? Everyone just gets it.

 

Bethan 

Oh, Crikey, pressure.

 

Bethan 

I think just taking the time to stop and listen a bit small. Listening to other people listening to your own thoughts. Listen to you got fail.

 

Bethan 

Yeah.

 

Bethan 

It’s not good enough.

 

Bryn 

I mean, you can be the answer. Bethany, it’s been fantastic talking to you today. Thank you. Somebody wants to find you. Where about

 

Bethan 

they can go to Beth and when.com or just find me on Instagram Beth and when critical thinking or Facebook, add me on LinkedIn on building that up all of the places all the places. Yeah, and I think I’m the only Beth and when wi n and in Australia, nobody in the world so that’s kind of useful. Yeah, so not Bethany never call me Bethany better bth and

 

Bryn 

thanks so much for taking the time to come and talk.

 

Bethan 

Thanks so much, man. It’s been a pleasure

 

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, critical thinking, thinking, big, life, bit, emotions, feel, podcast, feelings, thought, person, fallacies, put, stories, system, welsh, biases, nice, neighbours

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