#186 Stretching Forward into New Possibilities from COVID – Andy Lamb

The focus of this week’s conversation is about how organisations, whether private or governmental, stretch forwards into what is possible rather than snapping back to the ‘old normal’ in this post COVID world.

I explore this with Andy Lamb, an experienced organisational disruption consultant who specialised in unlocking creativity within businesses.

What makes this conversation super interesting is its fractal nature in that Andy started by noticing small changes that he needed to make himself on a personal level, and then spotted the patterns that emerged applying them to larger organisations in his work.

We also dived how to remain open to learning, complexity, ecosystems, and much, much more.

While on the surface this might seem like a very heavy topic, Andy is a super articulate guy and he’s tonnes of fun to talk to, which makes this a very approachable conversation that will lightly provoke quite deep thought.

Read Full Transcript

Bryn Edwards 

The focus of this week’s conversation is about how organisations, whether private or governmental, can really lock in these new ways of working and make them stick in this post COVID world, rather than resisting the temptation and urge to snap back to the old normal, as it were.

 

I explored this with Andy Lamb is a very experienced organisational disruption consultant who specialised in unlocking creativity within businesses.

 

What makes his conversations super interesting is what it is because it’s what is referred to as a fractal conversation, in that Andy starts off by noticing small changes that he needed to make himself on a personal level, and then spots the patterns that emerge, and then applies those to larger organisations in his work, and in some cases, to the state of Western Australia.

 

We also dive into in this conversation, how to remain open to learning complexity, ecosystems, and much, much more.

 

While on the surface, this might seem like a very heavy topic, Andy is a super articulate guy and he’s tonnes and tonnes of fun to talk to, which makes this a very approachable conversation, that is really likely to provoke quite deep thought. So enjoy, Andy.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Hello, welcome back to WA Real. I’m your host, Bryn Edwards. Today I have the great pleasure chatting with Andy Lamb, Andy. Hello, welcome to the show.

 

Andy Lamb 

Thanks, Bryn. Nice to have you here. Thank you, northern suburbs, I’ve run all day,

 

Bryn Edwards  

it is up here on your balcony.

 

Andy Lamb 

Third time it’s been used in about eight years.

 

Bryn Edwards 

There you go. What a great thing. So I asked you the other day? What are some of the things that’s been coming up for you in your work? And what are some of the things you’re resonating with, and you were telling me that and is very much you’re doing a lot of work around stretching people’s thinking about what is possible, rather than in this post COVID impacted world and snapping back to try and grab the old normal and expand a bit more on that.

 

Andy Lamb 

Sometimes words come out of our mouth. And I don’t really know what they mean at the end. But I guess probably towards what when COVID happened. I think one of the one of the big things for me was there was probably a bit of a personal health journey I was starting to go through. Yeah. And you know, every other week I was on a plane, you know, I was most probably 70 80% of my clients on the East Coast right outside of Perth. And so, you know, I was always I was flat out, you know, I do a day’s work here with a client run a workshop, I’d then go to the quantas lounge, and, you know, and then have, you know, a couple of wines and some cheese and get on the plane and you know, and then wake up the next morning, do the same thing and then fly back. And and I remember this one time before that, that I went backwards and forwards across Australia three times in a week. Right. And it was just that whole, you just get into that momentum, I think, get into those habits of doing that. And it started to have an effect on I guess, you know, my health and I couldn’t run and there was all these things, right?

 

 

So you couldn’t run because you were physically now that and

 

Andy Lamb 

then I it’s a long story. I mean, I did a plan to fashi I and then that in my head, then I couldn’t run and can walk and then it threw me out of alignment and then you know ended up going to a physio and then are you on the plane? Right? Yeah. Hey, well, it was one of those things that that really, I guess looking at nutrition, traditional senses, I went right, I’ve got a problem, you know, after my plantar fascia, I got better with a knee. So I went Alright, let’s go to a physio, then they just tried to work on that. And then, you know, my other kind of knee went a little bit because you know, my gait would have changed? Yes. And now started getting a lower back issue. And you know, just lots of small things. Yes. And

 

Bryn Edwards 

many people are listening to this right now, guy thought that was me.

 

Andy Lamb 

Yeah. And it was, I guess I sat down just the more traditional approach, right was this whole thing about, you know, going treat the symptom of something, right. So reduce it

 

Bryn Edwards 

down to this one thing.

 

Andy Lamb 

That’s it, right. And so I started doing that and it didn’t really have a lot of effect. And so a friend of mine at the time said, Have you been to see this guy who’s actually across the road in in Pembroke, right, that does, kinesiology. physio Chi, so it kind of brings a whole bunch of stuff all around energy flow. And then allowing, supposedly right here allowing your body to heal itself in whatever you want to do so, and I caught myself having a chat with him one night he goes, have you ever been to see him? I mean, I don’t do that shit, right, you know, I’m like, let’s do this science based, you know, a lot of ethical and all that kinda hippie shit, right? And I was like, and now all of a sudden I caught myself and I went, you know, if I’m, if I’m working with a team, or I’m delivering a keynote or something, I’m talking about creativity. I actually one of the strong themes I bring out is if you want a different outcome, you got to change the inputs. Right, which gets us all into this whole change. Yeah, and the psychology of change and change management and organisational psychology, which we won’t worry about that now. But. And I went, Oh, hang on a minute. I’m actually doing what I advise and take people through not to do. So I went, alright, what am I got to lose. So I went and saw him. And there was a whole bunch of things happened. And he was working on one piece at a time, but in kind of a greater ecosystem. And I started to feel, you know, things were improving. But there were a few things that he kind of said, or identified or some model, you know, to help us make sense of the world. I think as humans, we love models, like we love a, you know, a two by two matrix or a map or, you know, awesome Venn diagrams, right, and helps us anchor our thoughts. We love it, right. And he said, You know, one of the things because I guess of your lifestyle is that he said, Look, from a gut perspective. And I’m a big believer in you know, trust your gut instinct, and those kind of things. And there is a lot of science around, yes, coming out now. He said, Look, you’re not giving your gut time to recover, right with your lifestyle and travelling, and then that’s probably impacted, you know, you’re running and all this kind of stuff, which is good for mental health. And so it was just this steady spiral. And then what we did is we kind of unwound that. And one of the things he said, he said, Look, you need to reduce your coffee, your sugar, alcohol, and, you know, processed grains, I think it was right, which is pretty standard around a lot of people talk about this new things. And so I went, Oh, man, that seems like a lot. So what I did is I just went Alright, what I’m going to do is I’m just going to do one thing. Yeah. Right. And so every time I went for a coffee, I just said, I’m just gonna have a decaf coffee. Right, which for me, after living in Melbourne for 10 years, right, and being a coffee snob, I thought that’s probably the hardest thing. And after a couple of weeks, I just went, you know, that was easy. So it was this new habit, but it was done repeatedly. And so then I did, you know, I reduced things like bread didn’t cut them out. Because I think, you know, when we make something bad, yes, right doesn’t work, we want it more, we want it more, right. And so that I did the same thing. And, you know, with with grains as well, alcohol I tried, but obviously we were coming into COVID. So that had its own challenges. And, but what I did start to notice is that the small changes over time started to have a bigger impact. And so what I’ve always done, and I did this through COVID as well as we can’t really go anywhere, I can’t get on a plane. I was still you know, my legs, and my lower back was still coming. Good. And so what I discovered was an English dude called Joe weeks, right? Oh, yeah. Doing hit training.

 

 

Yeah. Morning PA,

 

Andy Lamb 

right. And so what I do is I just go Alright, I’ve just been for four hours on zoom. So I just come up here, and just for 15 minutes, and I do the same thing. And I think even to start with I pick like the most basic thing. 10 minutes. Yeah. And I finished it and I went, well, that’s not like going for a run for an hour. How can that have any, any good. And again, it was this whole thing around. If you start small and just start implementing small changes that aren’t a big deal. It’s easier to bring, you know, this impact that we go through. And so then, you know, so now I do intermittent fasting as well, which, you know, I mean, from a physiological perspective, I think I’ve dropped about 10% of my body weight, I’ve got more energy, my energy is a lot. I still drop off in the afternoon. So plugged in which I’ve dropped off actually, but I need to get back into it again. Like a 10 minute meditation. I’ve always tried to do meditation in the morning because that’s when we’re told to do it. And it was like this bollocks. It doesn’t work. My mind wanders. Yeah, but in the afternoon, I noticed when my energy levels were coming down, it just kind of calmed me and yeah, so again, it was all these things around those little small changing habits having a bigger impact now and I did that also. COVID Yeah, right or so all 320 20 you know, because COVID was supposed to be gone and, you know, post COVID world and all this kind of stuff. And but what I then did is I started looking at Well, there’s, there’s a, there’s a link between what we do personally, with these type of things, and what we do in our organisations that we work in as well. Yeah. Right, because the systems and processes and structures and recognition and rewards and KPIs design businesses to work exactly how they are. Yeah, right. And then everyone comes along, and we go, Oh, well, this is my job. And this is the process I go through. And this is what I need to do. And this is how I

 

 

KPIs and puts

 

Andy Lamb 

out Brian rewards. And then you might find someone in the leadership position goes, we need to be more creative. We need to be more innovative, we need to get new ideas, we need to do this. Where does that?

 

Bryn Edwards 

Where’s that urge? Or that impetus? Or the imperative to? Oh, we need some more creative, that creative shit going on? Where’s that normally come from in your spirit?

 

Andy Lamb 

I used to say, so it’s not the creativity thing, because I think the creativity, that Monica, right ease underpins a lot of the stuff that we want to do. Right? So whenever I ask people and say, you know, who thinks they created in a room? Right? Very few people put their hand up. Okay, unless you’re in a digital design agency or something. Yeah. Right, cuz that’s what we get paid for. But I think what I’m creating, and I’ve worked this out over the years, and by no means my journey isn’t finished, right, some 50 this year. I’m still learning shit now. Yeah, right. And I think that’s, that’s what we need to do with our kids. But that could be another topic, right? We need to you know, they work in an ecosystem as well. Yeah. But we need to be, you know, however, we, you know, build kids and resilience and all this kind of stuff we need to instil that lifelong learning component. That is the thing that’s changing. Yes, Gone are the days where we have a you know, a job for life. You gotta you learn the I through the process, you learn how

 

Bryn Edwards 

to trade. You became an apprentice, then you’re right, then you become the master.

 

Andy Lamb 

That’s it. thingy. Right? Where were we before that? So this is what happens. Right? So before the kids are so in companies run companies yet. But what happens is this small thing? Yeah. So what happens is, people are used to so leaders in organisations are used to working in a certain way because this the skills that got them to that position. Right, are, you know, is what is recognised? Yes. So usually, if you’re a CEO or a senior leader, right, there’s very few people that are true leaders. Right, that will be brave enough to take the organisation on a journey. Yes, maybe away from the past. Most of what I see are people that are very good at managing and delegating, yeah, right. And looking different. Right. But someone generally will go, we need, you know, we need new ideas, we need to solve problems in a different way, or

 

Bryn Edwards 

is that like, almost like an implicit feeling that what we’re doing has solved yesterday’s problem, but now we’re in today. And it and we’re not quite completely off the course. But we’re not. We can feel that the outside world that we’re trying to meet has moved a little bit. And now there’s that little bit of tension. And then the gut response is, we need to do something different. This must be equals creative. Therefore, we need to, yes, more creativity.

 

Andy Lamb 

So I’ve got this, I’ve got this slide that I use in some of my workshops and talks. And it’s that Oh, shit slide. Right. And it’s got a it’s got a rock climber. There’s hanging, you know, off a rock. Right. And I think, as human beings, when we’re faced with adversity, we are absolutely brilliant at tackling the challenge head on. Yeah. Because it’s kind of like, we have to remove this. Well, what happens if I fail? Right, which is what we don’t breed in organisations? Because we’re paid to come up with the right answer. Yes. Which is why people sit there and procrastinate, you know, because, because it has to be right. You don’t get paid for coming up with the wrong answer. No. Right. So against that, yeah, that’s the whole thing. So I think, you know, so when COVID when we had to do what we had to do. Now Ironically, the thing that I think was fantastic was, you know, for someone that’s worked remotely, or in a hybrid nature for probably 15 years, on and off is for me, it was normal. And I just went Cool. Well, I’m set up to run right A lot of people that go and say, Can I work from home in an organisation? You know, in a traditional, you know, that has an office and everyone’s got a cube? Or, you know, yeah, well, they got are now we’ve got hot desking or all this kind of stuff. Yeah. Is they go? Nah, look, yeah, don’t want that because I want you in the office because you know, you collaborate better when you’re in the office equals I can keep I can keep an eye on you. Right? So it’s management by, you know, seeing what’s going on present is that’s it, right? And we already know, people are only productive probably 60% of the day. Okay. So it’s a trust issue that people would say, I didn’t go through the system like that. So I’m not going to do it. Because whether they realise it or not, those senior people in the organisation go, I haven’t got the trust in my staff to allow them to do this. Because when normally I think of working from home, they’re not working, right, they’re running around, they’re down the beach, you know, they’re doing all this stuff. So COVID hits, and we have to work like that. Yeah. Now, when you look at, you know, organisations, and I know, you know, tourism and travel, and those things have been hit really hard, right? Because we can’t move around. Yeah, but when you look at some of the other businesses, and you look at what that level of trust in their people has done, organisations and are working in different ways, they’ve got a decentralised pool, people know what they want to do. It’s more about outcomes, rather than ticking boxes. It’s about taking people on the journey for them. It’s about this engagement, you know, with between staff members as well. Yeah, we’ve got a problem. Let’s solve it together. Yeah. Whereas as you would know, right, you got a bit of grey hair is normally we build silos in organisations certainly do. Right. And so I think, you know, one of the biggest things I think will be a massive disappointment for the world is if we just snap back and go, I want everybody in the office, because we’re paying, you know, extra amps of rain. So I know, they say, so I need to see you again.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Yeah. Because it’s, it’s almost even as you’re explaining it there. And, you know, it’s almost like a gut response that I have that comes up, which is before, you know, I need to see you. You need to be present. You know, which is very parent child without, you know, dive in and transactional analysis, but it’s very parent job. Soon, as you say, right, you need to be work at home. And I’m just going to trust you that you’re going to do the job that I’m paying for you. Now we’re into an adult adult relationship.

 

Andy Lamb 

Well, you hopefully, yeah, yeah. But

 

Bryn Edwards 

it’s approaching more than adult. I mean, I remember the first time I had the manager back in England, in a consultancy, I was working at and he basically said, Look, as long as you get that report done by Friday, lunchtime, I don’t mind whether you do it or just don’t take the rest of the week off, or whatever. He says, a pay to get jobs done. That means it’s a busy week, one week, and then you’re chilling out the next week, that’s fine. But as long as the work is done, and if you need some help you put your hand up. Yep. And you manage the risks and communicate the risks and deliver the outcome out come outputs and the outcome to the quality specified. Good. Do it Yeah, you want?

 

Andy Lamb 

Yeah. And I think it’s probably something like, oh, Phil, like a grown up? Yeah, it is. And I think it’s also, you know, because I’ve worked like this with myself, when I’ve started businesses, you know, now in more of the, I guess that, you know, the facilitator, you know, Speaker kind of coach market, it’s the same, it’s, you know, I bred this, that this is how I work, right now, there isn’t, you know, all the challenges Don’t go away, because I’ll still go out to people. And you’ll go out, and they’ll call you because they got I want people to think differently, or I want us to take more risk, or I, you know, I want to come up with a new innovative product or a side business or, you know, I want to digitally transform our organisation, which is hot at the moment, right? Yes. And I think that the challenge is that I’m still having to kind of engage in that traditional approach. And so one of the big flags for me is people say, well, what’s your hourly rate? And I used to go, Ah, okay. And I’d give them an hourly rate. And but what that does is straight away, it sucks you straight back into that ecosystem. And so what I do now is right is I come around, say, Well, what are the challenges that you’ve got? Why do you want to do it? What’s important to you? So I get much more into the empathy side of things? Yeah, what, where are they trying to get to? And then I bring these things together, like a toolkit. And then there’s a price associated with that. Now, the price isn’t just an hourly rate, because, you know, for 30 something years, I’ve been kind of pushing and challenging and learning, you know, these things along the way, as a whole bunch of experience that comes with there’s a whole bunch of story that comes with that as a whole bunch of, I guess Lonnie, G and Dr. And that’s not an alibi. Right,

 

Bryn Edwards 

yeah, it’s like the story, the metaphor about the guy that turns up in, in, nobody knows how to sort the plant out. And he turns up and just hits one thing and turns one screw and then charges them two grand in the light. Can you give us a breakdown and, you know, five bucks for the hitting and the turning, and 1995 for the experience that told me exactly where to go to tap in?

 

Andy Lamb 

And it’s, it’s interesting, right? Because normally, so if you would have people internally trying to solve that problem, they will come at it with a whole bunch of, you know, preconceived ideas and what’s been done previously, and, you know, when I’ll work with some of my clients, and I’ll say, when was the last time you know, you went and spoke to your customer directly, not in a sales capacity. And they go, Ah, we did that just the other, you know, just a year ago, or something, you know, we had a roundtable, we had this, when you drill into it’s like five or six years ago, yeah. And it’s the same with solving problems is people go, we tried that it didn’t work. And because you get very, your staff get very, very good at the process side of things, efficiency, right, and say, you know, there’s there’s ways to grow businesses, you new markets, new solutions to problems, all that kind of stuff, or you get more efficient. And so what ends up happening is people become, you know, efficiency champions now to say, isn’t it, it’s safe, right? This is what new markets and

 

 

new things are scary shit,

 

Andy Lamb 

right? And especially, I mean, this, this drives into starts driving up into the board, right? And if you look at the moment, right, if you saw all the stuff going on with crown, right, with money laundering, and all this kind of thing, now, the board should have been across all that. But what happens is something big pops up, and half the board just resign and get Rk. Right, and away we go. So and I think, you know, a lot of people and I’m not saying it’s everybody, but I think that rites of passage, I’ve done the hard yards, I’d clean, you know, cleaned off, I’ve climbed the corporate ladder, right now what I want to do is go out and I want a board seat, we’re looking at risk and governance and all these kinds of things. Now, you would have thought that would have been something that they should have been doing at Crown day in day out, right. And I’m not picking on crayon, it’s only because it’s topical. But what happens is a lot of people that are on a board turn up, they get a board report, and they go through and they pick one or two things out of it, and they go, what’s this mean? What’s that mean? Are we going are you going to make your targets that you set, you know, CEO? And then they go, alright, we’re done. And we’ll come back in a month. Right? So there’s no real again, this braveness of challenging the status quo. Yeah, right, even starts. It’s not even inside the organisation, it can be at a board level as well, yes. And so we’ve got to get people thinking about, you know, not just diversity of race, and ethnicity, and sex and all these kind of things at the board, we have to get into diversity of thought, and creativity and challenge and opportunities since making frameworks in life in reality, right, which is then comes back into what we’re talking about before around. Creativity is kind of the thing that sits underneath that. And when I talk about creativity, for me, it’s about how do we recognise we’ve got standard ways of thinking and standard frameworks and standard processes. But we shift our thinking to a new paradigm to come up with a different opportunity. And that bridge is creativity. Right? And so all artists do it. And you know, and that’s why we think about these things being creative. The Creative Arts is because they’re always trying to change that. Yeah. Right. And when you do do it, it just becomes, you know, your neural plasticity starts to breed that.

 

Bryn Edwards 

So you’re out at the, the leading edge in the boundary of the frameworks of how you make sense and understanding and meaning of the world. Yeah. Does everyone have the capacity to go out there? Um,

 

Andy Lamb 

so I mean, there’s this thing, you know, people always say, and I asked him in, in stuff that I’m doing, when do you think you’re the most creative? And it’s usually around the ages of four or five before kids go into school? Yeah. Right. So because we don’t have as children, we don’t have a fear of failure. So we will sit there when we learn to walk, stand up for labour. Go ahead. And wait, I’ll try it again. Right. You know, if you pick up something hot, you don’t have a fear of failure, you pick it up, you got all that was hot, right? So we’re always pushing the boundaries. And then I think, again, you know, it’s one of the ways that we can coexist As humans, we have to have, you know, the societal norms, right. So if you think about the education system, the education system from years ago was designed to prepare kids to go into, you know, industrial age organisations now we still build, organise Based on that Industrial Revolution model, you know, seven and three quarter hours, whatever it is the day that we’re supposed to work, or so many shifts, or you know, all these kind of things, we have to have a head office, everybody comes to meet, you know, it’s the plumbing that glues it together. Ironically, technology now allows us to build these organisations in a different way. Yes. Right. Which comes back to the trust issue. But I think if you start looking at the, the education system, you know, you go into school, and you’ve got, you know, 30 kids in primary school, right, with a teacher or two teachers, so they have to put some structure in to manage that. Yes. Okay. And I know, there are other schools that, you know, Montessori and all those kind of things that don’t do that. But what happens in the moment is that system prepares people when they pop out the other end good, bad or indifferent to fit into another ecosystem. Yes. Okay. So I think exposing kids to ongoing, so lifelong learning, challenging the status quo, not accepting that everything is known about what we do. Right, unless it’s maths, apparently, you know, because the pure language, right? I think we do have that ability. But I think again, it comes back to, and I think this is a it’s a, it’s a level of service that lead us senior leaders, senior managers in organisations need to bring to their people of saying, we’ve always done it like that, give me you know, if the solution can’t be that, what should it be? Which gets us back into this whole thing of going? Oh, shit, if we’ve got a challenge in that isn’t the solution. What is? Where do I get this stimulus from? Hmm. And I think, you know, one of the fortunate things I’ve guys because I work across so many different industries, you know, from heavy research with universities and csro, to, you know, global companies, to national companies down to, you know, some startups as well. Is it always that thing that we’re trying to do is go, you know, we just need to take a step back and go, what is what is it I’m trying to solve for you, right? And what’s happened in other industries that we might be able to leverage? Right? And so when you’ve got that curiosity, that curiosity of a four or five year old child, and you see the world like that going, Well, what is this kind of mean, and how does it interact? And does that ecosystem work by itself? Or with this? Or, you know, how do we pull all those things together, I think that’s what breeds creativity. And then we solve problems in different ways.

 

Bryn Edwards 

You said, technology allows for different now allows for different shapes of organisations. And I for a long time as a business consultant, had this sort of gut feel that our tradition traditional forms of organisations, which spent some time looking at it are probably a product of our movement, you know, the Enlightenment movement to rationalisation and the increase of science and making things predictable, and things like that. And so then we, we create organisations with like said, with policies and procedures that deliver the same thing again, and again, because we live in a predictable, or we did live in a sort of predictable world. And the challenger is, you know, at, like, a deep gut, heart, child level, was, yeah, I get that. But that’s not really in line with the truth of, let’s take, I mean, we could talk about nature, but let’s, let’s even go with the human journey. You know, we, you talk about lifelong learning, I’ve been spending quite a bit of time looking at how, how we develop and mature and our ego develops over life. And, and there are hierarchies growth has not power hierarchies, growth hierarchies. You know, we can get to, you know, one of the areas that I spend a lot of time deep diving into is the transition that we go through between the ages of about 38 and 4344. Some people call it a midlife crisis, but there’s an alignment and all of a sudden, subtly. It’s paradoxical, it’s subtle yet quick, all of a sudden, the things that were important to me no longer important, the new stuff is just switched on. And, and my sense of identity has crumbled. And the newer one is emerging. Yeah, that just feels more grounded in what really is going on. And so that’s just one case in point. And, and so when we have these rational and in the passagio monolithic organisations but even you know, smaller organisations work off the same principles that we’re trying to overlay this rational organisational thing over the human journey. It was always destined to fuck up for one. Because you’ve got this narrative of this is what this is how things go. Yeah, but then this is truth of this is what this is what happens, you know, and that’s why you have the, you know, incredibly successful board member CEO, who’s, who’s overweight, and he’s mad. He’s on his third marriage, and kids don’t know who he is. Right? It’s like, and so, back to my original sort of question is, is, do you see as technology is allowing different shapes of organisations to come together? and an opportunity for that, in that designed to be almost aligned with more sort of natural progression of things and allow for as well? What is emerging? Because things emerge? Yep. Mergers are where they’ve been using a lot recently.

 

Andy Lamb 

Yeah. Okay. Interesting. One at one of my themes, I think for what are we 2021? Yeah. Is unlock. Yeah. And I think you know, there are certain pathway, you know, people go that whole midlife crisis thing. Yeah. Right. And especially, and I think it’s more relevant. It’s not specifically for guys, but I think there’s a lot about, right men. Yeah. And I remember, you know, one of my, my first jobs when I was sort of 1718 was working very traditional. Arthur Andersen accounting. Yeah. That kind of that kind of world. And, and I talked to some of the graduates because I came in from an IT perspective. I talked to some of the graduates and I go, you know, what did you do at uni? And they went rd commerce and law, and be like, Well, why did you do that? And they went, Oh, my dad did it. So I just did it.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Yeah, I didn’t know what to do. I’m very underwhelming,

 

Andy Lamb 

right. And then it’s almost like their pathway for these people was already preset, because that was the that was the direction that they wanted to take, whether it was conscious or unconscious, or whatever, right. I think you know, and that’s how easy this is, right there that we don’t realise. So it comes back to this brave component, I think of going a moment in time that we stop. And we think and we question what’s around us? Right, and whether that’s, you know, whether it’s a self as a human, you know, whether that’s more meaningful life, whether it’s, you know, the ecosystems, the businesses, all those kinds of things, is, I think that’s stopping that think, because we are all busy. No one ever says, You know, I, you know, what, I know, I’ve got four hours today to do something, right? Because we always get into this business of trying to do things, right. And again, when you’re busy in Australia, reverter type, as well, very addictive, right? So sometimes you’ve got to slow down, right, and give something up to then go, what can I fill that space with? And I think, you know, this is a I guess, technology is fantastic, right? And, you know, when we talk about technology in 2021, we obviously talk about, you know, being hyper connected, you know, devices, all that kind of stuff, right? The Internet, the knowledge, you know, shopping your fingertips, all that kind of thing. But you know, technologies and everything we do, you know, new new glass, to hold out the sun or to get, you know, glass wood frames to get solar panel out of them, you know, new storage systems for hate that then we can use in agriculture. You know, how we design vaccines, you know, technology is really just something that is applied to solve a problem. I think as human beings, we’re very solution focused. And we get into this mechanism of going, I can solve that. Right. But we don’t go and explore what the problem is enough. Yes. And that’s why we end up with startup businesses and all these things where we don’t explore what is the problem we’re trying to solve for. And I remember seeing, I think it was it was either it was either jack Ma, or Jeff Bezos said, it’s actually easier to become a billionaire than you think. What you need to do for 100 days is just go and speak to people in the area that you’re looking at. And just keep asking them about their problems. Right. And in a non kind of leading way, don’t lead the witness. And over 100 days, you will start to see consistent themes that come along your patterns and patterns. And when you get to that point, that’s when you should start to go and solve that problem. Yeah, where’s what we do is go I’ve got you know, I spoke to three people like the three people that have been my friends and family. Yeah, and I also It’s a great idea. And they told me they’d buy it. Yeah. Including my mom. I’m gonna do it inside of organisations as well. Yeah. Right, is we got it, I’ve got a solution to that. But there’s,

 

Bryn Edwards 

there’s a, there’s a real tension there, though, because, you know, there’s this, there’s, there’s always this restlessness, whether it’s internal or external as in your current solution, because then you can make the money. And then you know, because otherwise, you know, the mortgage payments always going to turn up in the month and bread needs to be put on the table. So there’s always, you know, I’ve started to myself start to sit and enjoy and be in complexity with no rush with. And while sitting in complexity. Just feel it with no, and trying to bait my restless to fix things.

 

Andy Lamb 

Yeah. Just Yeah. And just be Yeah, be in.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Yep. And see, and, and that’s awesome. Right. And I can see how it can be of enormous value. To be able to sit in some sit in an area of complexity and just see it for what it is. Yeah. Yeah. Is that particular as I look back across be okay with that? Yeah. And be okay with that, you know, essentially. But also, as I look back, as I’m across my, you know, 1718 years of being a business consultants like photography, if somebody had given me like, three or four months to sit and do this, and there have been projects in my history where I was allowed that time. Yeah. You know, one of them being mapping the entirety of the business process space for Gorgon for Chevron. Yeah. You know, that seven month project meant that all the other subsequent projects that did that, I just knew how it worked. Yeah. And, and yeah, so I think it’s valuing that and allowing and creating space for that. And then probably always protecting it from the board of directors who are going what you’ve just paid for all these people to, in effect, sit and chat.

 

Andy Lamb 

Yeah. And that’s what they say.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Yeah. How productive is that?

 

Andy Lamb 

And then it’s even worse, right? Because if you’re a zoo, if you’re a listed company, yeah, and you’ve got a report every three months. Yeah. Right. So you know, most superfunds are the holders, you know, they hold in these in these companies, right? Yeah. And so what happens is, if you miss your guidance, you get slaughtered. Yes. So then if you miss your guidance, and you happen to be a shareholder on a board as well, your net worth goes down. Yeah. So if you’re used to a certain level of lifestyle, yeah, we say, all of a sudden, you go, we can’t actually do anything here. Our hands are tied. Yes. Whether they realise or not. Yeah, because they’re just going for their 3% growth.

 

 

Yeah, you know, because they’re because we all bow down to the, to the, you know, addictive growth.

 

Andy Lamb 

Yeah. And so, you know, I’ve seen this if you start, if you look at companies like say, three n, right, that have consistently come up with new products, right, over the years, they have a, I guess, a culture and then a recognition that they’re always going to try new things and push things. Yeah. Right, and push the boundary. And so that culture comes through. Whereas if you’re in a more traditional organisation, so say, you’re in something, you know, super excited, like insurance. Yeah, right. Everything you do, you’re looking at the weather, and all these kind of things to go, how can we predict more around what’s going on? Right? But when you look at technology, and you go, Well, you know what I could I could just go out and go, I’m at home 24 hours a day now because of a global pandemic. So I don’t really need no content insurance, because I’m always here. But I’m going to go away for you know, the borders open down south. So I only need content insurance for two months. Yeah. Right. You can do that with technology, because the cost of doing business is a lot smaller. Yeah. So you can build these micro insurance kind of things, right? Yeah. But if you’re running a massive insurance company, you go, doing the small thing is not important to us, because we only do big things. Yeah. Because we’ve got all of these people that we need to keep busy. Yeah, to How the hell can we just do this small stuff.

 

Bryn Edwards 

And now, right there, you’ve reflected a macro level of your micro that

 

Andy Lamb 

whole thing of where it was this, you know, this whole point of going, if you do the small things and you do them consistently, right and repeatedly, you will lead to a different outcome out as a as a leader of an organisation or those kind of things. Your job is being brave enough to free the space up for those people to do that. We’re gonna go and Tinker. Yeah, right. And you don’t and my big thing is

 

 

from the outside looking in, it looks like we’re not doing a lot. Yeah, that’s it. We’re actually doing shit tonnes. Yeah.

 

Andy Lamb 

And so my thing you know, this is big thing people always hang on to this, especially around tech organisations. Just like Amazon gives everybody 20% of their time to come up with new ideas, right? Yeah, well, they don’t as much anymore, right? Because they’re a massive organisation with 10s of 1000s of employees. So they struggle with that, you know, a lot of people in organisations have hung their hat on, you know, moving on from being Lean and Agile to what Spotify did of bringing tribes in, right around problems. Everyone goes, we need to deploy the Spotify model, right? In ecosystems around startups and innovation, people go, I need to be more like Israel, I need to be more like Silicon Valley. They don’t sit there and go, we need to be more like somebody else. What they do is they sit and think about, what have they got at their disposal? And how do they build an ecosystem that works for them? Right, and I think that’s what we don’t do in Australia very well. And we don’t do it in Perth very well. Yes. We don’t just go. Let’s go and do some shit. Yeah. Except most of it isn’t going to work experiments. But let’s see where it gets us. Yeah. And we don’t do that. And I think a lot of it is around. You know, we are very process oriented NWA. Yeah. mining, oil gas. Oh, yeah. Very process. And so are thinking like, let’s be honest, very process.

 

Bryn Edwards 

outsiders looking in boys from England originally. This is a, you know, you take the hood on there. It’s a very conservative town.

 

Andy Lamb 

Yes. It’s very entrepreneurial ship, but it’s very conservative. Yeah. Right. And I think, you know, they’re the types of things that, you know, that we should be doing, and we should free up. You know, the people that think differently and want to take on challenges. Yeah, you know, and have these. These plans to go, I don’t know where we’re going. I don’t know, you know, how we’re going to get there. But you know, what, there’s a problem we’ve got at the end of it. And it’s coming, and we need to solve it. Yeah. Right. And, you know, as human beings, we will solve it, because that’s what we do. Right? The world has not finished because we’ve had a pandemic No. Right. So we will continue to make the world how we see it needs to operate. And that’s the I think the thing that a lot of people miss, and that whole, you know, bringing it back into the, you know, I Ironically, the best time to start, either a new business or a new innovation or those kind of things is when you’re young. Yeah, but you don’t have houses and school fees, and all this kind of stuff, which is

 

Bryn Edwards 

because both real estate and baggage and shit.

 

Andy Lamb 

Yeah, it constrains that thinking, right? But you don’t have the experience at that point until you start getting some grey hair and you failed a few times, and some stuff hasn’t worked. But then you’ve got this baggage around as well. Yeah. Right. And I think, you know, senior leaders in organisations, they have these commitments, they have the responsibility, they don’t really know where they’re going. And that that structure around how they operate, and how they’ve been put in that position. And the skills that they’ve been put in that position for is they try and hold on to that. Yeah. Right. Because they go, there’s comfort in this. But then, on the other side, they go, I don’t know how to change. Yeah, right, or change for me is I’ll hire Change Manager. Yes. And I’ll tell them, because that’s what I’m used to doing. This is what you need to do to change. And really, organisations change and ecosystems change based on the people inside it coming together, and the culture that they drive. So I always say to people, culture is not something you hang on the wall. Yeah, vision and values and, you know, having a design thing and going, Oh, these are our corporate colours. And you know, and we’ve got this and we’ve got a layout, that’s the same and we all wear the badge on our shirt and all that kind of stuff. What that does is create, you know, what if we look the same, and we work the same, we think the same? Correct. So what you need to do is go How do we inject some of this. And so now one of the few things I started doing a while ago is I would deliberately change my dress, to confront clients, based on what I was going to do. If I was working with an early stage business, I’d get more dressed up with a with a, you know, shirt on and stuff like that. Yeah, if I’m going to work with a larger organisation, I’ll go more casual and T shirt and those kind of things. Because the moment you walk in the door, you’re challenging their status quos. Yes. And you can see it whether they’re comfortable enough. Because you know, the engagement does not come from what I wear. Right? It comes from the experience and the stories and let’s see, you know, seeing, you know, problems and being able to apply that and all this kind of stuff that doesn’t come across in what I wear. And so that one, just before COVID is one of the things I would start to ask people and I think this is really important around that buisiness kind of thing as well is if you want to do something differently, right. And you want to start small when you want to build a new habit. You’ve got to drop something. Yeah. So now I’ll always have in my, you know, in my proposals and in my conversations, what are you prepared to give up? Yeah, to do this piece of work. And I’d lost work through it. Because people go, I thought you were just going to there was just going to happen. It’s like, No, you have to change this. Right? You can’t expect Oh, that’s the other one I love as well as you go out and put together say, a plan for 12 months for an organisation, right? A bit of, you know, inspiration, stuff up front, a bit of skills, development, a bit of problem identification, some coaching, mentoring with some staff, that kind of thing. And you go, this is to get you on the journey. This is what you need to do. But this is a five year journey. And they go Yeah, I get all of that. But I’ve only got two days for you to come in and do something. Yeah. And you go. So how long has the organisation been around 5060 years? How many people have you got in the organisation? Oh, no. 5000, right. How long have you been working in the way that you have? Oh, well, we had a redesign, you know, 10 years ago. And other than that, I’ll say, so you want me to help unpack that in two days. Because you have built the organisation that you have designed, and you’ve got all of those systems and structures in place. This is an ongoing process that you need to go through.

 

Bryn Edwards 

I suppose even at a micro level, would you expect someone to work through all their childhood drama and baggage and shit in their life in an afternoon? No, no. It takes time. So how you gonna do that on a macro organisation? Yeah.

 

Andy Lamb 

Like I went this morning? I did. I was thinking about this because we had a chat coming up, right. So I went for a walk down to I went for a run. So you don’t have to wear a mask with yet with heavy with vigorous, vigorous exercise. So went for a run down the coast. We’ve just got podcast halfway. You can put that in in a filter afterwards.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Yeah. Really. So went down,

 

Andy Lamb 

down to the steps that Hillary’s. And I thought, because I like to mix stuff up. So I just got up, but I went down there. And I ran down there. And I went up the steps half a dozen times. And then I ran back. And there was a called a personal training session going on with probably about a dozen people. And I was looking and they were going through the same thing. Right. And it would have gone for an hour. Right? Yeah, they probably go twice a week. Yep. Right. And it’s the same thing. They go through it twice a week. So they fit it into their their system. Yes. But the thing is that only two hours, over a whole week of all the time that they’ve got, where you’ve got all these other things that go on. So you’ve got stress, you’ve got diet, you’ve got all this other stuff. And so for me, it was that whole thing came back again and going. We try and fit our life into one hour blocks. Because our calendars tell us yeah, we’re sometimes it’s just easier and better to go. You know what, I’ve got 15 minutes, I need a bit of headspace. Just go for a quick sprint around the block. Let’s put on a hit training session. Let’s do some Let’s mix it up a bit. Let’s do a run. Let’s do some stairs, let’s do all this kind of stuff. Because you know, our bodies get in get used to Oh, is Tuesday, I’ve got to go and do my one hour exercise. You know, our bodies do that on a on a physiological. It’s very

 

Bryn Edwards 

interesting. It’s super interesting. You bring that up, because way back at the start of the of doing the podcast I interviewed. It was a second podcast, actually, I interviewed a lady called Dr. Margaret Dunham. And I later interviewed her partner, Mark, and they run a movement studio in my room. So I went along because I thought well, I’ll give this a crack. And you don’t actually know what you’re going to do when you turn up. Yes, there is a strength component which has a bit of repetition to it. But that’s 20 minutes in an hour and a half. And you learn to use your body in different ways. And we will work on a particular project for six weeks. incremental, incremental, incremental, and you just get out of the armour move toward and into the I can just about do that. Whether it’s juggling, whether it’s moving on the floor, whether it’s learning how to use your spine, and just as you starting to get a sense of comfort with it, bang, we’re on we’re on to a new project for six weeks. And you do that for a period of time and then all of a sudden, those lots of little projects start to turn up into a whole new have their impact on my body and in and now I can do and move and things differently. And then all of a sudden I become aware of it because I used to after playing rugby I did I was like oh well I’ll go to the gym. And I was like What should I do now I’ll get into insurance. So you know, triathlons and then I moved here swimming to rot nest and stuff like that. Or repetitive, repetitive, repetitive repetitive stuff. And then my body just had this incredible burst of freedom, because I’m moving it in different ways. And then all of a sudden, I’m thinking about things. And then all of a sudden, I become acutely aware of seeing just what you saw, which is people going to the same exercise class doing the same movements over and over again. And then you actually sit in people’s body shapes. And you’re like, wow, your body is a reflection of, yeah, what you’re doing the process. Yep. The, you know, the process the the policy of repeatable, yeah, predictable outcomes.

 

Andy Lamb 

And I think, you know, it’s interesting, we’ve been bred, you know, to bring light this back to technology. So one of the things is, I always look at how the next generation and the generation after them, you know, because my girls are, you know, in year 12, and year nine, so I look at how they interact with technology. And we have this, you know, immediacy of response of things now. Yes. Right. Because you want something you’re hungry, jump on my phone, and I can get it ordered. Yeah, right. And I have this constant battle with my with my girls go and they go, can we have ovaries? And they go? No, we’re going to the shops, right? For one, because it’s just, you know, it’s two K’s away. I said, it also puts more money in the hands of the, of the restaurant. Yeah, I said, but then it’s the same of coming back that you’d have to do with an Uber and that every time we’ve had Ober eats, there’s been an issue with it. And I’m like, so why don’t we just go and do that? And just take a you know, five more minutes? Yeah. But they’re used to that immediacy. Yes. And you know, and I think this is the, you know, a busy world naturally leads to that as well. So we go into business, right? And so we just end up in this on this hamster wheel of going shit, I’ve got to be busy. If I’m not being busy. Right, then I’m not being productive. And I think we have that, you know, we have to try and unwind that ecosystem sometimes. You know, if you’ve ever been too

 

Bryn Edwards 

busy, this becomes a badge of honour, doesn’t it? And he’s wanting to recently I’ll be busy.

 

Andy Lamb 

Right. And I caught this. I caught myself doing this same thing with a guy called Dave Claire, as well.

 

 

Yeah. They’ve been on the podcast. Yeah.

 

Andy Lamb 

And and I’d say to him, how are you at the moment, he got a call when, you know, I’ve got all this stuff. And he got How are you? And I’m like, oh, man, I’m busy. And I still and I catch myself doing it. And I go, you know what, actually, at the moment, there’s more going on. Because you know, my, my kind of work comes out of cycles come out of Christmas, New Year, a whole bunch of people get in touch, they want stuff done by the end of financial year, then they take a break, because it’s, you know, financial year, then they ramp up again. So it’s kind of four month blocks. Yes. And so I you know, now at the moment, I’ve got a bunch of things that I’m sort of prepping for and getting ready for and all those kind of things, which is why this chat is good as part of that. I’m winded it yet. But it’s really easy to go. I’m really busy. Right? But it’s really it’s I’ve I’m engaged around. I’ve got enough things going on with problems I want to help people solve. Yes, right, when there isn’t an easy way of saying that. Yeah. Right. So you just go Yeah, I’m busy. I’m busy. Right. But you go, you know, you need to come back to and go, Well, you know, I’m okay. I’m good. Yeah. And I think, you know, comes back to that whole thing we said before, is that sometimes to do something differently, you need to free up space, to allow something new to fill into it. I never used to do that. And I think that was ingrained in me. You know, my, my dad was, you know, come from coal mining stock was a Sparky was in, you know, Africa, working down mines came here to go on the mind, you know, ended up having his own business installing security alarms, you know, would work seven days a week? Yeah, you know, they give him that’s what’s wrong. Right. That’s it, right? They give him the you know, all the hard jobs because he would go and do it. You know? And, you know, and that whole point of where you get to that end is you you know, it’s not forced upon you. But you see those behaviours, yes. And I was always in a rush. You know, when I was younger, I was like, I need to double my salary, and I need to do this, and I need a business and this and that and everything else. And I was always busy trying to do stuff. And I think that led to a bunch of shit going on here. Yeah, eventually kind of went

 

Bryn Edwards 

away. This isn’t good. That’s, that’s fine. That’s the natural human evolution journey that I was talking about. Yeah. And I think the inevitability that that’s gonna

 

Andy Lamb 

Yeah, and I you know, you because you can’t hold. You can’t hold everything. It’s like the late spinning mode. Yeah, right. And then I do think as well, that I think when you get to that point, you will allow people into your life because you’re looking at probably the goal from a financial reward perspective or something, rather than I do actually want these people in my life. And you know, I have this concept now of like from the olden days. Like a dance card. So, you know, back in, when people used to go out and go to the halls and they go dancing, you’d have all the dancers listed. And you go around and say, Who are you going to have that dance with? And there’s about 10 or 12 names on it. Yeah. And so I’ve, you know, said, you probably got to have deep meaningful conversations with people, right, where they are people that you want to bring into your life that, you know, if you haven’t seen him for a while, it’s like, you’ve just caught up again, you know, it’s kind of things, you probably only got space for 10 of those 10 or 12 of those. Right, and you, you know, you can move people in and out and all that kind of stuff, doesn’t mean that you don’t have, you know, a bunch of other connections, and, you know, and networks and all this kind of stuff. But it’s just that deep, you know, with everything else that goes on around us to have a deeper, more meaningful conversation around that. I think you’ve, you’ve got to find those people, you got to find that tribe of people that you Yeah, that you that you bring together and can have those conversations? Mm hmm.

 

 

It’s very important.

 

Andy Lamb 

Yeah. Well, as you go looking for stuff, right, you go looking for answers in probably the wrong places, right, you know, drugs and alcohol and all sorts of stuff, right. And, you know, this, this point you mentioned before, is you kind of get into that mid 40s 50s, or whatever, and you wake up one day, and you go, I’ve got all the material possessions around me, but my kids won’t speak to me, you know, I might have been through two or three wives, you know, I’ve lived half my, you know, my asset base a couple of times. And then you wake up and go, Well, what am I gonna do, and the classic thing is that you go, Oh, go and buy a sports car, to try and get that back. And I think, you know, it’s, it’s a reflection of just getting on that hamster wheel and go, and this is what’s pre programmed, and I, you know, it’s it comes back to you got to be brave to sit and think and explore and, and whether that for some people is, you know, looking at nature or looking at other things, or whether it’s more, you know, religious or whether it’s spiritual, or all these other things, I think that that moment in time where you just go, you know, I’m going to do this for myself, or I’m going to do this for the team around me, or I’m going to do this for, you know, the organisation around me, is important to be able to do that, in that space. I

 

Bryn Edwards 

think what’s been great about this conversation is that they’ve been through and his personal journey. And then also, we can now see the reflections and the parallels between your own individual journey as talking probably generically more about individual journeys, and then up at a bigger macro organisational level, you know, it’s kind of this, I think, this is one of the reasons why I could always see certain things as, as a business consultant with a psychology degree was, because if I could see and feel this going on inside of me, then that, then I was pretty sure that it was going to be happening at a bigger macro level. Yeah, with me, times 3000. And then that as an organisation, organism in its own right, moving through time responding to its environment. And yeah, and you see the rise of different, different priorities at different times, you know, we’ve all seen organisations when all of a sudden, you know, the main manufacturing part takes the lead, but then it burns people out, or you see the rise of, like I saw in Chevron, the rise of the power of HR, that’s great, but then nobody got anything bloody done. We’re all doing the HR thing. And you know, and you’d have senior managers going, people who are professional Chevron employees, not employees. Yeah. and stuff like that. So. So yeah, I think what’s really fascinating is, is that the, the reflection of the individual level reflects also up at an organisational level. Absolutely.

 

Andy Lamb 

There was one thing that you just mentioned there is that, you know, that recognition, I guess, the self and trying to work these things out right away, is there’s one of the things I come back to when you’re trying to go through this is, you know, when you when you pop out into the world, there is no menu. No, right? No. And we’re all just trying to make this shit up. Yeah, right. It’s as simple as that. Yeah, we’re all you know, the vast majority of this really knows how what you know, right? That’s got it figured out. We’re trying to go through life and work out what it is and try not to hurt people and try not to create, you know, yes, there are some that are way out there and don’t give a shit, right? Like, they’re just on this massive journey to get there. Right. But I think the vast majority of us are just going I’m just trying to get through life and enjoy my life and enjoy the people around me and do good things to people and see where we get to. And I think you know, at the end of the day, that should also be about the organisations that we’re helping build together. Right, not just from a leadership perspective as well.

 

Bryn Edwards 

I think. Yeah. I think one of the things that’s been coming up for me recently, and again, it’s in here is we are faced with a very uncertain, complex and ambiguous world. And it’s also complex and ambiguous inside as well.

 

Andy Lamb 

Yeah, it is. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, um, it’s funny, right? The two after annamaet. They do it. And it’s, it’s hard. And it’s perspective. Right. And it’s, I remember, one of the my first memories I have of getting on a plane and travelling, and I remember looking out of the plane and going, everybody looks like ants. Yeah. And I think that that, and analogy, metaphor, whatever it is, right? When you’re and this is probably why I love travelling, as well, is you get in a plane. And as you start rising, you start to see how small everything is, but how interconnected it is. Yes. And the roads and you know, all these this plumbing and stuff as well. Yeah. And then I can only imagine if you’re sitting on the moon, right? Or on the International Space Station, looking down at the earth is you go, how is this ecosystem, you know, coexisting, and everything else that’s going on? Yeah. And when you actually come back down into it, you come down into a part of that ecosystem. And then you go, shit, well, this is just life, like interacting with all the pieces. But when you take that macro level, again, you go, this whole thing just works. Yes, right, good, bad or indifferent again, but the whole thing just kind of hangs together. Right? And yes, we’re gonna hit more problems. And yes, we’re gonna have issues. And yes, we got challenges with climate and all this kind of stuff, and pandemics and all these kind of things. But we will solve them. Yeah, I don’t know how we can do it. But we will solve them. Yeah, well, should be different.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Yeah. But recognise, solving it is most likely beyond the mental horsepower of one individual. Correct?

 

Andy Lamb 

Correct. It’s, it’s collaboration. Yeah. And we have to be open to that collaboration, we have to be respectful of other viewpoints. We have to take inspiration from people. You know, that’s, I guess that’s what I’ve loved about this is, you know, yes, we’re gonna talk just about organisations and leadership and all that kind of stuff. But there’s a self component to it. There’s pressure for philosophical your opponent to it as well. And I think, you know, when you’re looking to solve problems, that’s what we need to do. We need to bring people with disparate thinking, right, and different thinking and creative thinking around the table. Yeah, right or down the beach, or, you know, wherever it is, and actually say how we’re going to solve this from a multi dimensional perspective.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Just close that. But you mentioned earlier on about how you met graduates that had turned up and studied, you know, university, like Yale, Merced and stuff like that. I had had someone recently say to me, you know, our son’s getting on thinking about University, what would you suggest? And, boy, I word up no lie. I said, Well, maybe philosophy, maths, and a bit of history. Yeah. All right. Not business, as I know, cuz the shit is gonna learn, there’s gonna be well outdated. And he’s gonna have this level of thinking, which is quite that you go and consider any of those ones I’ve just told you. And they’re thinking pattern, you know, philosophy, History of Art, or maths as well. Yeah. And you’re gonna have a nice, diverse, divergent set of stuff, which, like you said earlier on, will promote that diversity of thought and learning, which will help us move forward. Yeah. So the last question I like to ask or at least

 

Andy Lamb 

get guest

 

Bryn Edwards 

all my guests in the past. I love it. And you’re you’re copying again today? Is if there was one question that you could upload into the collective consciousness, and everyone had to just sit still for five or 10 minutes and consider it?

 

Andy Lamb 

Yeah. Why?

 

Bryn Edwards 

Why, what?

 

Andy Lamb 

Just Why? Why? Yeah. And just leave it out there. Because I think it means it means different things to different people. Right. And so for me, I think, and again, it plugs into like, it’s one word with a question mark. Yeah. But it plugs into this whole thing of different people on different journeys. And I think, you know, it is that whole thing of, I think from years ago, people go, Why don’t they go? Well, why not? Right, but I think it’s more than that. It’s that Well, what does it mean to you? And, you know, as you said, if it’s a collective of thought around that Think just putting something simple out there allows people to fill the space. And so when they fill the space with their thoughts that leads your thinking to areas that you didn’t want to go. Yes. Now Yeah, it’s it’s big and you know, all this kind of stuff. But I think that what you get back from that sort of thing could be stuff that you’ve never even thought of or experienced, or, or even come to. So, so we’ll leave it at why. Excellent.

 

And it’s been great chatting this morning. Tonight. People want to reach out and find you, where can they find you?

 

Andy Lamb 

So on all your favourite social channels, right, because that’s what we have to do now. So generally, on Tick tock, Try it. Try it at once. So Andy m lamb. Yeah. Or Andy lamb.co. Is my personal site. Yeah. Or innovation. studios.com is my business site. Excellent. So yeah. So thank you. Thanks for having us on. You woke up at six. Yes. See mine say he loved it. Thanks. Bryn.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Thank you. Cool.

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