#191 – Regeneration: Coming Home – Anthony James

This week I had the great pleasure of speaking with Anthony James, who is the host of the Regen Narration Podcast which focuses on the regeneration of life on this planet. This conversation was the meeting of two ‘meta-nodes’ discussing much from across the range of people that we have both talked to on our respective podcasts.

The topic of systems came up – those that are serving and those that are not serving us. Anthony spoke about how development involves a period of unravelling and the gentle stripping of old frameworks to reveal dissolutions as well as the need to be solid in the wilderness within.

He also shared a beautiful story from Archie Rose about the elders that are sitting around the campfire waiting for us to come home – a theme that has significant meaning throughout this conversation.

This was a fantastically delicate but powerful and strong conversation with a lot of humour – particularly listen out for Anthony talking about lasting change.

Read Full Transcript

Bryn Edwards 

This week I had the great pleasure of speaking with Anthony James who is the host of the Regen narration podcast which really focuses on the regeneration of life on this planet. It was a great opportunity for two meta notes to have a meta discussion about what I and Anthony see from across the range of people that we talk to in our respective podcasts. Again we looked at systems and those that are serving and those that are not serving us and Anthony talks about how development means a period of unravelling first the gentle stripping of old frameworks and how to be solid in that how to be solid in in the wilderness within he also shows this beautiful story from archie rose about the elders that are sitting around the campfire waiting for us to come home and that has significant meaning throughout this conversation we also talked about the need to tend to conditions in which rather than solutions dissolutions come about again this idea of unravelling so rather than trying to unravel just tending to the conditions that allow that to happen this was a fantastic lee delicate but powerful and strong conversation there’s a lot of sense of humor particularly listen out for Anthony talking about lasting change comes up to a giggle a number of times is there’s so much more in this and I’m sure you’re going to enjoy it so enjoy antonym

 

Bryn Edwards 

Hello and welcome back to WA Real, I’m your host Bryn Edwards today I have the great pleasure of speaking to fellow podcaster Anthony James welcome to the show

 

Anthony James 

Thanks Bryn it’s very good of you to have me thanks

 

Bryn Edwards 

well you have me here at your kitchen to do welcome indeed so as i said you know fellow podcast that you’ve been producing the regeneration podcast for a few years and i was particularly interested and excited to talk to you because i’m big into sort of meta analysis and i find that for those that have been in the podcast game for a while and they’re quite focused and probably focused in a way that investigatory and it’s linked to learning and things like that as opposed to just doing it for a marketing commercial front of which there’s many and you then become almost like a meta node because you get to dive into all these different people and you’ve had some you’ve had some really cool people on your podcast you know ready for big names like zack bortion tyson young reporter and nora bateson no they’re the three that stood out to me personally which says a lot about me so yeah i was really excited to get the opportunity for almost like one meta node to have a chat with another meta node so we can have a meta meta

 

 

look at

 

Bryn Edwards 

indeed indeed so we spoke recently and i asked you what was going on and one of the things you were saying you’re talking about is almost like constant evolution and transformation that’s going on for you at the moment that’s a good place to start what do you mean what do you mean by

 

Anthony James 

yeah probably is a good place to start because we’re wherever you are there’s obviously a context to it and and that’s part of the meta thing isn’t it really being able to whatever you’re looking at be able to look at what shaped it and what’s given rise to it and so what’s giving rise to this conversation or part of what’s giving rise to this conversation at least this party of it yeah is is a particularly intense time around dad’s passing a couple of months ago and and with that i was on the one level the ongoing process with the podcast which similarly i’ve just feel incredibly grateful for in terms of being in that position you describe and in speaking with these people who perhaps otherwise i wouldn’t get to speak with and with the sort of an open ended with the licence to be open yeah and so you know this very well it’s i mean i didn’t necessarily think this right it’s quite i’d probably shouldn’t yeah we could talk about that yeah Probably key to all the best things in my life actually, is that that it’s totally this extraordinary gift and a bit like an intensive course, all the time. in the best possible way, I love it. But it does mean then that it does feel like I’m really shifting and growing in myriad ways. I guess quicker and more profoundly than I would have otherwise. So match that with the security experience of dad’s passing. And then and then I felt like, I guess, again, consistent with everything we were talking about, we’re going to talk about, they couldn’t be held apart. Yes. So the first podcast for this year, inevitably a little delayed, had to infuse this experience. And so I ended up doing a monologue of sorts for the first time in my experience. And, and really shared, some of them met are some of the systemic aspects of, of a man’s dying, that, in some ways, are sort of liberating and in other ways are systemically devastating. When the weather systems working, that’s terrible. It’s not working at all, which of course, isn’t a secret to most of most Australians at the moment, but it’s all over the news, the way the aged care system works, but but I sort of drew threads then through other systems, and then the culture and the way we set these things up. And so I guess here for me, it’s been it’s a doubly intensive time of where we’re mortality and generational shift is very present. And that’s part of then I guess, perhaps what other people have experienced, is it standard? I don’t know, the expected probably is that if you’re open to it any way that when a parent passes, you feel a bit of a child in the cogs is good, more than you. I certainly feel that sense of stepping up or needing to step up, it’s my time to step up and take more responsibility. And when I say that, I mean, for people in place. Yes, planet, like, step up in your custodianship become a grownups. Yeah, yeah. Well, another level of isn’t it? Not elder yet? Yeah. But it’s not a grown up. I like to think that, you know, my initiate my rite of passage or whatever, that I have to self navigate a little earlier. It’s another story. Yeah. We may or may not touch on that, that that was a while ago. So at this point in my 40s. It’s just, it just means another. Yes. Within that spectrum, another shift. So yes, that’s a bit of the Maelstrom that I’m swimming in at the minute. And it has been a bit this sort of orienting where otherwise I might have a little more control on it. But with the death of Dad, it’s been a sort of harrowing nature of it. It’s been it’s been a bit I’ve had to, had to look for the reins at times. But, but here we are, but I feel blessed. And it’s good to be talking about it.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Hmm. So yeah, because it’s very easy when you talk to all these great people, and you have these top quality conversations. And I find that each one leaves a little imprint upon you. And then as you said, that then gathers a momentum which accelerates this exponential growth. And then there’s almost there can be this hubris, hubris mix, it comes in, which is like a wow, because you can feel the growth in like, Oh, I’m obviously going somewhere, but then life can come in. Yeah. might be the father or something else? And just yeah, take that

 

Anthony James 

apart. Totally. And good. Yeah. Because, you know, if you were to boil down amylase, and there are opportunities, like they do, what they can come down to a few qualities and, and hubris is amongst the ones that are our undoing. And humility is amongst the ones that are the way out. All the way in.

 

 

Yeah.

 

Anthony James 

So, so good that it does that I mean, often think the same thing when when machinery breaks down as much as happened the other day, something happened. It was a total. That’s right. Important email correspondence with someone in Melbourne, who was hoping for something from And and a couple weeks she’s normally bang on to it’s a couple of weeks go by and I think she’s so new maybe something’s wrong. Are you okay rara? And she said, Yeah, okay. Just didn’t get your first email then got an auto email that you that you didn’t even set up this from a year ago or something and net wasn’t even a date you said the one you did complete, you know, machinery. Yeah, boggle up. Yeah. And it was just another one of those moments where you go, inconvenient. Yes. But on the bigger picture level, reassuring that the machines haven’t got control. Yeah, you know, and But no, have we by by extension like, yeah, we are not living a mechanised existence as much as we might try at times. I find that that’s actually reaffirming of our humaneness and, and nature’s wonders, and what’s beyond is that there’s the great mystery is alive, you know, yeah. So long May those jagged edges that that can puncture any sense of, you know, having control of things. Long my that live.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Yeah, because, and what comes up as I was listening to you, that was for a second, I went to English boys boarding school, which was hugely regimented, right. And the days I loved the most rare snow days, because it just threw everything into disruption, all of a sudden, you know, all of a sudden, we were in the playground, you’re doing this, maybe, maybe your mom or dad came and picked you up a day earlier, or, if that were, if it was close to the end of the week, and the first quarter went to or there would always be disruption. And then coming out of because I felt maybe not the mechanisation as in the machine as a literal machine. But as in the behavioural mechanisation, and said that had had this, the spanner thrown into it. And I just loved it. And, and then leaving school, we would get snow days when they would disrupt work and all of this sort of stuff. And in England, and it was like everybody, I can’t get in the car, and I can’t do this. And there’s always there’s, there’s always this felt sadness for me, usually round about the second or third or fourth of January, when everyone’s had 10 days off work and they’ve just chilled out or they don’t have Christmas and what have you. And then and but this is incredible, weighty sadness to me that everybody just seems to forget about everything and put the clothes on and go back to work and do the mechanisation. So I guess that’s a long winded way of saying that. That’s one of the things I’ve really, really enjoyed about last year,

 

Anthony James 

or exactly was

 

Bryn Edwards 

that all of a sudden, it illuminated all of this. And it held us in a place where we couldn’t snap back for a period of time. You know, this time last year, we were just Oh shit, I stay at home for a while. And everyone’s scrambling to try and grab a piece of normality that they know. That wasn’t gonna happen. And and yeah, and so it it’s at that moment, those moments, I mean, the number of people I’ve listened to that say, Oh, I had a two week holiday on rottnest. And then last week, I was remembering about how I used to like painting and really wanted to own a coffee shop, but then forgot about it and went back to work on the terrorists. And

 

 

it’s

 

Bryn Edwards 

messing with those systems. Yeah. And I guess one of the questions I was keen to investigate with you is, is we have these disruptions rather than personally, whether it’s passing over a loved one or snow, or something like that. But for somebody who’s delved into the systems that we have, what do you think it’s going to take us to really and snap open So

 

Anthony James 

the short answer Do you believe me that I’d have one now the short answer which is no answer at all that say I can have a short answer is that it’s up to us. Yes. You make me think of a couple of things because COVID is precisely where my mind went as well. Yeah. And and of course around the world this still gripped by it. We can hear at times particularly wi so locked in not locked now. Yeah, yeah. Right on. Yeah, exactly. And we’re in a we’re in a big state. I’m not a big island. So you know, you can, you can anyway, arguably some of the best stuff has come from reconnecting with yourself and with place in your family and all that sort of stuff. There’s no doubt and and i still as much as it might feel like a cliche now as we’ve snapped back in many regards i mean traffic in perth now is 20% more than it was pre pandemic for example and that’s clearly a whole bunch of different reasons repatriation whatever fears around pt public transport etc but but for whatever snap back off it’s still true to say i think that people are reflecting or have reflected that it has shifted things and certainly some of the sites i saw in lockdown around here have families around coastal area walking running at the beach was just beautiful dads with daughters that i’d never seen before and in every way wonderful it was a little snapshot of some of the beauty that is on offer if we can say actually some of what we’re actually aiming for in life to achieve a development that’s worth the name is we actually have achieved it we were there and we can afford now to smell the roses a bit yeah we don’t need to get jobs in growth going again rara we can settle in in fact as a lovely thanks pat ozzy in the uk wrote a book and was on the podcast because we hosted an event here in perth with her catherine trebek the economics of arrival yourself at home when you developed

 

 

yes what

 

Anthony James 

are you growing for anymore yeah aside from you know staying on top of the heap and being out of course people in war but that’s not development so what are we actually trying to achieve here yeah anyway so the other thing just to tie up before i throw it back to you is you triggered a thought about the brilliant researcher rebecca solnit right who has who sort of became globally famous around the hurricane katrina but she’s got a stack of work before and since around what those sorts of smacks will produce because the whole thing around hurricane katrina that shocking news stories were about you know black communities running rampant riots looting and rara yeah and the reality i mean there are those bits on top sure but the reality underneath on the ground was extraordinary resilience and connection and cooperation and saving each other because the state had really abandoned them in many respects yes so a heck of a story that basically she’s then extrapolated a thread from all these different instances of disaster were somewhat paradoxical but really not at all if you understand the dynamics that she’s revealing is that when mundane life is punctured by these things yes it brings people alive

 

 

yes how’s

 

Anthony James 

that it brings people alive it triggers it triggers a more acute and immediate sense of who can i help what can i do i can do this i’m being useful mean etc etc and i think there’s something massive for us in that it’s to not seek actually to be too comfortable but to seek to be alive and an all matan mentor of mine used to call that saving the wilderness within and i sort of carry that exists very close to me and and i really liked it you know as a sort of a self confessed screen he said look i’m i’m i’m interested in those forests over there in victoria it was over in gippsland or whatever but mostly and at the base level like those forests will depend on the wilderness within you and will you leave this room after being with me a little wilder a little less predictable a little less mechanised a little less mundane and that would that was success to him and i still carry that torture i reckon that’s i mean if we’re aiming for anything it’s it’s life isn’t it

 

 

yes

 

 

yeah

 

 

yes it is

 

Anthony James 

they’ve read not so long ago that the disaster is described as one that breaks the everyday operating well you know what’s interesting what does development mean but let’s just think about the word which i did a bit 20 years ago when i was studying it and overseas and whatever so if envelop is to is to wrap up if you look at the dictionary develop yeah it part of it will tell you it’s unravelling yes isn’t that interesting yeah but we’ve got this whole the whole sort of other i think psyche around development but maybe the actual meaning of developments not so bad

 

Bryn Edwards 

for then the unravelling this then becomes the challenge there is a saying i’ve been exploring recently is is managing your own nervous system to be able to stay open during an unravelling which creates quite an existential challenge because if something important that you use to make sense of the world is unravelling that can cause systemic overwhelm and paralysis tie or just we’re not having this it’s too much but if you stay open to that then you start to tap into more continually existing part of yourself that doesn’t matter and you separate out so you know in play it we were talking about borders or boundaries beforehand and i found one of the things interesting is that as things come from being a subject to an object for me subject means that they have me so like when i was 18 my emotions had me frequently but now i can delineate some and now they become objects and i can see them and i have them still coming at me from time to time but you see my point so as as sensemaking starts to become more of an object of curiosity for me and wonder then i can hold on to still a bit that possibly beyond identity and then open up to unravelling

 

Anthony James 

yeah no right on you you reminded me of in a beautiful conversation i have with charlie massey sort of regenerative agriculture elder of sorts in australia right now and we talked about this a bit in it it brought to mind a story that i was lucky enough to experience with after my mentor what as he was as it turns out ending near that nearing the end of his life but at the port at that stage it was just i was succeeding him into the teaching of the postgraduate sustainability stuff at university yeah and in doing that for a little while after he died as well there was we’d have students from sort of 25 to 75 even it was quite wonderful and perhaps the oldest one ever and i think he was the 70 mark he ends up saying something like i feel like i’ve lost my language i can’t i can’t say i can’t even talk anymore because what i’m instantly hearing is is wrong like it’s wrong wrong but it’s an old frame of understanding that he’s left yes but hasn’t established that one yet got the vernacular and the semantics to describe exactly and and describe the the next frame that ideally would then continue to evolve you wouldn’t yeah i mean the whole idea of lasting china would create lasting changes so that yeah you still hear a little bit in sustainability and so no no actually you want change the art of change yeah not not a lasting change because they’re talking about not yet mapping back to old ways but but still not that’s not the goal is the art of change had it it’s often thought it would be changeability but i’ve since liked more what what this bloke in my life frame called he’s titled his book response ability into words just how to respond to life and yeah and get better at it anyway so i said this to charlie and he was like from all his studies in the in the cognitive end of the spectrum we are explaining why farmers change or don’t or change or cancel you know and most have changed through trauma you know the old being punctured having the frame punctured before you can move it not everyone but certainly most he sort of put it about 60% and he just felt like that experience with that older guy that he articulated it beautifully

 

 

yes

 

Anthony James 

the challenge of it and i guess then as people like me would be you know pinpricks yeah would be punches that’s right that you the responsibility then is to make sure you’re not stripping anyone bear or three throwing them over a cliff edge or something you

 

 

know in what regard

 

Anthony James 

well that you would bring about the stripping of their old frame yes where they’ve got a base

 

 

yes whatever there’s not overwhelm

 

Anthony James 

and you then so successfully take them out of that and and that they are left feeling completely exposed overwhelmed don’t know how to handle i don’t even know where to go in these data processes where they’re done well where they have significant supportive structures around them whether they be i mean in regenerative agriculture you might talk about nrcs australia a unit in your painting queensland over 30 years have developed these peer networks where people carry each other from the courses they do which break the world open yes and then you’re supported you know you know yeah appear since now communities of support or whatever name but whatever it is that you’ve got to you need that infrastructure list you actually make things worse for individuals but then by extension a lot of us yeah in in ways that you will described when you ask the question so yeah it’s really important i think i’m sure you get better at it with that yeah and then you can it’s a virtual saw you recognise the stages yes

 

Bryn Edwards 

you don’t freak out during it exactly is there a i find there is this i’m always noticing now i know when there’s a new level of of of something moving from subject to object because i can feel the edges of it it’s causing me frustration and i can’t articulate it

 

Anthony James 

yeah and that’s that transitional moment and then all of a sudden you’ve read a book or or or into have a conversation with somebody and someone will say something like that just like yeah but does it feel good data articulate this brilliant no now i can put my arms around that not not because then it makes me feel safe because then we’re about to comfort but then i’m like now can do something with it yeah well said no i think that’s it

 

 

yeah another guest recently actually you have to be sensitive with people if you’re sort of helping them along that was it

 

Bryn Edwards 

i just came across the concept of optimal conflict which which has you’re at the edge of your sense making but it’s not overwhelming but also has the door closed behind you so you can’t back out

 

Anthony James 

the devil you know totally you’re in it no that’s right but jesus is uplifting staff when you when you get hold of it i mean it’s partly why people would have had beautifully got in touch with me in the last couple of months after dad’s passing and after the podcast i put out which referred to it and and you know how you going basically and wow and i’m able to thankfully it never felt like the floor had dropped from under me in the same way you’re describing really so basically it left me in a transformative space needing to give it the time and all that sort of stuff and brain wiring around something different so that i couldn’t do normal sort of mundane functional

 

 

yeah bypass it

 

Anthony James 

yeah that’s right that sort of energy was going to another realm that and the way they’re describing it for people was that i’m solid in it that’s just a way of saying what you’re saying that what once you get practised enough this is just yeah it’s the wilderness within it’s a way that you can be alive and not need to have a lock on stuff and it actually is a spur rather than a ball and chain or or a thorn in your side yeah it’s actually a spear or a way of being that is uplifting and makes makes you days quite wonderful they know that’s even in mourning

 

 

yes i

 

Anthony James 

would say that it felt like a blessing me given that it happens right yeah life

 

 

swept under the carpet

 

Anthony James 

yeah and why would you there’s now yeah there’s another level of responsibility there’s there’s another level of living out everything that they might value as well as plenty of stuff that you don’t like don’t get me wrong yeah we had a journey you don’t worry about that and you know related to some of your boarding school stuff that you spoke about in an earlier podcast because he was in a boarding school at age four and and we’re effectively still in it to 20 seat because he he followed the line and became a christian brothers so he obviously brought up with such a with that sort of even though he’d left that sort of boarding school thing so plenty of staff buddy it feels ultimately rich if you can be navigating it in this way that’s the minimal to move and

 

Bryn Edwards 

i like what you said twice about being alright with the wilderness within because so part of where the focus for me inside and outside of the podcast has gone has been around complexity and looking at emerging systems and and it’s been quite a journey for me to i think i mentioned in previous podcasts has been quite a journey for me to even acknowledge that that’s a capacity and capability that i have for us so before that in large chunk of my management consulting career i’d come home thinking i didn’t get it because everybody’s like i don’t understand what you’re saying and then i realised i’ve been speaking french to german people to use it

 

 

yeah

 

Bryn Edwards 

but the wilderness within i’ve been playing or playing with the concept that to understand and be okay with the complexity of the interrelatedness of everything that goes on outside i have to be okay with the complexity and the interrelatedness of everything inside i think i think someone pointed out is plato refer to this as a anakov or something whereby the more i’m alright with being with the complexity and the contradictory nature in all of it of being human then the deeper i can look into the outside world and then i extract more sense of meaning from it which then gives me a greater sense of being all right and the two does start to become deeper and you see further into the world and further into yourself have you encountered this

 

 

totally because

 

Anthony James 

because you know i’m aware of the you know that you’ve probably gone to the heart of this quicker with your with your podcast i’ve sort of arrived that i’ve been through the journey of listen to lots of stories and then also moving towards that there you go does that make sense no that’s really interesting yeah i find fun i mean now everyone’s story of how they get to these insights it’s bloody fascinating isn’t it it’s for the very reason you’ve just articulated it’s bloody uplifting like it seriously my life is a lot better now than it used to be without all the damage you know i look back and think all the damage that that i take back if i could and i mean mostly to other people but certainly myself but but yes to be alive to this yeah i know he’s pretty beautiful because i mean it’s i think we’ve barely scratched the surface right yeah yeah it’s a bloody amazing world out there it is it is it oh and in that and you know the more i see into one the more see outside so then i started looking at nature i’ll start looking at you know the deeper aspects of agriculture through my work with vegetables when i’m not doing this course the podcast status and and but then also macro economics and then politics and democracy and i started looking at things and they all start to illuminate yeah no that’s right it’s a really lovely way to put it and then of course you’re connecting with other people in that same y and then one thing can lead to another as does is yeah it works yeah and not that it’s all roses no because that’s not the way it works

 

 

that’s certainly in the case it’s everybody

 

Anthony James 

you’ve like it’s like i was articulating with dad’s passing you’ve just got your your back in alright a little a little story that all off at this moment then by virtue of archie roach aboriginal incredible singer songwriter i’ve been many a decade and certainly a cherished soul you know but i’ve never met him just yesterday sydney perform certainly and i saw him performing for a couple of years he i think was a couple of years ago legos last year i can’t remember what but tyler and COVID that he called he pretty much closed this beautiful gig in freo with a with a story about an old fire pit that had been found near his country in vague and the short of it is something i’ll be paraphrasing probably very loosely but the short of it is that this fire pit fire pit was discovered and sort of excavated and there was this extremely strong sense that the elders were still there around the fire as he relayed this story waiting for us to come home every time i even think about it still gives me wow chills and at that mode and so if the world the world whatever you want to call it is waiting on the elders and the universe data to god even if you like are waiting for us to come home then of course it’s gonna feel bloody awesome to be on your way yes and to think that there is a welcoming and nurturing a community like a communing waiting for us available to us in the world not the world’s out to get yeah i get on top of this rat race yes or worldwide to get me i better put the wall up or some you know things that go the other way which is having the most public one exactly and then by extension of australia yeah and in the subs we need to buy or whatever yeah $50 billion crazy thing is i mean by extension this and by extension there you go yeah that’s what where that’s our estrangement from home but but actually there’s a prism on the world that is more akin to reality as far as we can perceive it is that there is a nurturing there and a home there and any surprise i mean that’s what we came out of the fact we’ve gone away so maybe we needed to cut our teeth you know experiments but you know we can drift back now no wonder would feel good i’m just feeling into that me too yeah

 

Bryn Edwards 

i got i found myself in the last couple of years being drawn more to walking amongst trees things like that yeah i live in i live in becton so it’s a lovely little walk along black woolridge and there’s a particular area along there where i challenged myself not to be in my thoughts but we read the trees because he’s gone walk anywhere and just be thinking often and several times whilst doing that i then find myself just stopping and looking and think why not thinking feeling into it or or presencing into it all and then you get a sense of there is something holding and waiting for it despite the fact we’re being petulant youth destroying the sandpit

 

Anthony James 

no right on yeah i just actually watched a documentary that premiered at the transitions film festival online this year i actually ran that festival here in perth and hoped it would sort of kick on but you know things have got away in the way of events but they streamed it online for its hq over eastern and one of the films this year was the hidden life of trees like after the book the guy who wrote the book peter volume and did a series it’s an extraordinary documentary it’s an extraordinary book but i’ve never actually i’ve read it i’m sort of yeah meaning to and yeah and even another friend monica galliano wrote a book i carry the title of a bomb planning consciousness toy this is now a very well recognised thing in western science and becoming more commonly understood in western culture that i the trees commune feel communicate amongst themselves but be there their lives are not sustained in themselves or by direct photosynthesis as we might have as we did conceptualise all this in the west rather through the intricate networks mycelial networks in the soil and you if you took out the bits in between we were talking before about systems thinking that he refers to between the systems rather than systems themselves that there is a representation of it right there the tree would be nothing without the bits in between In that sense that consciousness in trees, which we haven’t been brought up with, yeah, let’s say that isn’t just in that tree. But then by extension, not just the new not just in me and not just moving on. So relative to that tree, it’s the same bloody net network. It is. It’s connecting us to that tree out there. And you do those trees there as you to me and everything else. How wonderful is that? takes the pressure off

 

 

that you’re done.

 

Anthony James 

You don’t have to be a hero. Yeah. So you can’t run away. Yeah. Because you’re still in it.

 

 

Yeah. Waiting for you. optimal comfort.

 

 

Right. All right, is fine. Yeah. Yeah,

 

Anthony James 

you got to face it. And you got to grow up, you know, all these themes. Yeah. They, they’re good metaphors for it. And you can transfer it into the carpet. No, no. But ultimately, then why would you didn’t so yeah, this is the thing once you break through, but you know, I remember to well, being a very depressed probably angry first and then depressed. younger guy oblivious to like, I totally oblivious to all this. Because upbringing, nature, the upbringing, I’d seen the lack of sense and when you say nature of upbringing, you mean. So the way the way that I was brought up, right? Yep. So churches it was happening didn’t make much sense. Yeah. Families what was happening didn’t make much sense. Which of course I’ve reconciled since because I was a kid in boarding school at age four ever going to know what family is possible, let alone have brutal boarding school was Yeah, yeah. So yeah, this is said with complete understand, well complete a lot of understanding and compassion now. But at the time was just a Dark Pit. Because you knew that didn’t make sense. What the hell does so but you know, here I am today, and I can well remember when it wasn’t so clear, or inviting.

 

 

But yeah.

 

Anthony James 

Yeah. That felt alone. Yes. Couldn’t find her. And then we’ve

 

Bryn Edwards 

been exploring a documentary series by creator that I really enjoy Adam Curtis. Yeah. And he’s putting out recently called, can’t get you out of my head. Have you been through it?

 

Anthony James 

No, I’ve just heard it. There’s a real extends the things that were on in the century of the self. About it’s almost as if it was, I think we might have gone just a bit too far with our focus on individualism.

 

 

Just say the ways

 

Anthony James 

but that’s the notation right, that

 

Bryn Edwards 

we can change. But then, well, here we go. Just as the subject becomes the object, so you can look at it and we have probably evolved out I’m gonna say out of nature, because we’ve never evolved out of it. But our perspective has evolved out of it into this individual who feels somewhat funny slapped if my coffee is not warming. Right,

 

 

I can talk you up with

 

 

us the best thing that came to mind yet, we are

 

Anthony James 

yet we are still part of this subject. And the object. Was it the concept have been introduced recently? We are we are actually part of the trans jacked.

 

 

So

 

Bryn Edwards 

yeah, and it’s, it’s, so it’s looking at that the, the how far we focused on individualism and everything else that’s come with that consumerism, yeah, in democracy compared to our collective focus, but then even our integrated focus.

 

Anthony James 

That’s right. But you know, By the same token, and I think this is important, too, it’s not like I don’t want to be seen as cursing everything that’s gone before. No, I mean, your podcasts have well shown has so much else has in my life is a case in point as well. That what was so tough earlier has opened the door. Yes. Is it gifts today? Yeah. So it’s not that you want to Be, be free of this have all been denied, or just think that was rubbish shouldn’t happen shouldn’t happen again for anyone else. Same with society though, so are individualistic, you know? Yes. Further for any POC, or any era brought things that I appreciate. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there’s a lot more sensitivity in the world. Exactly. There’s a lot greater sense of trauma inflicted upon us.

 

 

Yes.

 

Anthony James 

And, you know, in equality, yes. But then there’s also the romance of the troubadours. It’s from the same tradition, exactly. This the the opportunity, I had to have, like having been safe in the pit of despair, by luck, and ideally, that wouldn’t be left to lock in having been saved in the pit of despair, having the lights come back on, seeing possibility to be added, then follow that of my own accord, which I will be I’m still doing that there’s a freedom in that, that I value. And I’d like to think it’s bringing value to the whole. So it’s just to say that, you know, it’s not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, I guess is it probably the throw, isn’t it, that’s,

 

Bryn Edwards 

that’s the easy thing. I mean, you know, we get, we get a great example, you know, you’ve been pulled into going to church all the time. And then you get to a point of like, churches shit and throwing it out, there’s a lot of cool things to go with the process of going to church community connection with something bigger than yourself.

 

Anthony James 

And, and that others, because I don’t find that in the church now, and probably too burned, you know, certainly in spiritual traditions, and I still, and when I say that I’m, I will still communicate with people in, in the Catholic Church I was brought up with, and, and other churches and other Eastern spiritual traditions and so forth. So I sort of, you know, feel connected with the mall in a way to die. But I guess the most important thing related to what you’re saying is that there’s a respect for people who choose one, yes, so it doesn’t diminish that respect, all the value or the meaning in that for them. And I still like to think for all of us, like if, if the dogmatism and the I guess that’s what it is in it, when you think yours is the why and somebody else’s? Isn’t? If we could leave that, you know, yes. But then that’s still the same myself and that out of individualistic mindset, take into a tribe, basically, this is my tribes actually the one yes. And, again, just dropping that and coming back home, coming back home, then whichever home you set up yourself. Beautiful, make it nice, I’d love to visit on occasion.

 

 

Do you want to talk up on I would love to top up? Thank

 

Bryn Edwards 

you. And one of the things that I alluded to earlier on about speaking French to German people, as I was coming into my own understanding of how I was seeing things from an integrative system, systematic perspective.

 

 

It’s, it’s,

 

Bryn Edwards 

it’s kind of easy when you do something like a podcast, because you meet one person who then introduce you to another person, and you have one conversation that leads to another, another conversation. And then without realising it, despite the fact you’ve done this brave thing to break out of your echo chamber, echo chamber, you now find yourself in another echo chamber, and you don’t even realise it, because the thing that

 

Anthony James 

will lead to lasting change, don’t want lasting change, change. Or you don’t want lasting change. And so I guess where I’m getting to is, is that, so it would be easy for me at times to go hard on everyone switching on to this systematic, but it’s not the case. Yep. But is it the case? Maybe, I mean, this is the value of as Tyson younger Porter. He sort of just quips against that Tim Leary saying, find the others likes just stick to the others, and he means other others, not the ones like you. And that’s where he says he spends most of his time he makes sure you’re with people not like you. Yes. And that’s the wilderness right there. And that means breaking out to the algorithm, this knife that you enjoy, Oh, geez, underline, underline bold. We could follow that. through it a little more if you want to but for the just for the moment you know your podcast is called wi real and really that it’s a good tradition of that podcasting line that you’ve come out of that you’ve applied it here for me and for the i guess the learning that i’ve accrued in more recent times it’s it’s to get real and when i say get real i mean as much and my you know the podcast i host really only took legs because of this where a few years ago my family and i decided to go around the country and get to know that my place our place this country more much more than we had i mean i’d travelled but i’ve not gone out to meet people who were out on the country wherever i went farmers pastoralists first nations business people right as sociologists famous not famous elders young people like the gamut and get to really get to know our country and the people on it and that feeds the best of what you’re talking about i think when you’re not in your own bubble you’re not even exposed to the algorithms for a start for a start yeah and then you are with people in communities whoever they are bad luck if you can’t find anyone that you

 

 

like your bad luck

 

Anthony James 

but again such richness and what i found out there all the more was the richness that’s turning things around turning problems around like regenerating landscapes and first nations bringing they’re bringing their communities in back home would say words and and creating their own paths and telling their own stories a new and we’re now the beneficiaries of being able to hear those stories the way they you know not through colonial lenses which also then tell us about the land in turn i mean there’s the whole picture of why why country land real life trees is so important and the people that tend the places are so important to everything and why you know my previous work which is personal focused in an urban setting wasn’t enough in the words of allan savoury there can be no sustainable business if agriculture is not sustainable for example and in wy where the majority of our space is agriculture of one form or another let alone then the reserves that are bought those spaces you’ve got to you’ve got a landscape out there that’s an extremely poor condition and that’s enormous the so called developed country yeah that needs people back on country to be carrying food where it’s happening and working is to behold it’s incredible and it’s beautiful and it’s part of communities where it’s full of trial and tribulation so there’s you there’s your way in to connect to what people are grappling with and to a to a picture of the world that’s not going to be so slanted in one particular way be it exciting or not you know even it’s the disastrous bloody news you get it’s not slanted that way either like no get just the closer we can get to real life and the people in it better i think i think that’s a key aspect with what where they’ll keep out of the invitation let’s put it that way i think i was asked a long time ago what is the real yeah nwa real and my response was there’s nothing more real than an ending and often what i ended up talking about talking to people about is the ending of a story or the ending of a way of thinking or being and so

 

 

what i

 

Bryn Edwards 

got from listening to you there was it was like this layers of of stuff then are ending by the pursuit of going to talk to other people and then they are now starting to understand their responsibility for the land and tending to the land and like you said there is no business if there is no sustainable agriculture and and it’s slowly but surely the ending of those stories that took us away from that took us off on a game of hide and seek with ourselves and

 

 

yeah

 

Anthony James 

i think it’s not that i think it’s a penny just drop for me there in that that’s very much what i pursue yeah really interesting yeah and you know there’s so many ways that what everything we’ve talked about here is just constant ending yeah and constant beginnings and great awesome

 

 

yeah

 

Anthony James 

awesome and at the macro level as well it can be good like this could be really good to let this thing that’s overcooked yet just and yeah and rebirth into something else yeah see invitation again yeah and and rebirth we that’s it i think you know sorts

 

 

the worry

 

Anthony James 

or the concern that i have is that in that for me it feels like bigger bigger systems are showing themselves to be creaking now you know let’s have a chat about national debt levels yeah let’s have a chat about you know what’s going on the bond market and what that’ll do to inflation unless the debt levels and etc

 

 

and

 

Anthony James 

let’s talk about the fact you know we could talk about the fact that western australia has just voted itself into a dictatorship but i wouldn’t say that by the way

 

 

no

 

Anthony James 

but but i outright majority certainly yeah which has its

 

 

that’s right i’m not being evolution i’m just observing yes

 

 

yes

 

 

and

 

 

i’ve stumped myself now

 

Anthony James 

all right given we’ve stopped it it’ll come back to you yeah we just come in on the democracy dictatorship thing

 

 

yeah

 

 

so ah he’s got it as these things come to they’re

 

 

the

 

Bryn Edwards 

world’s second law of thermodynamics closed systems will always entropy after a period of time yes you know sometimes you don’t have to do anything they’ll do it in and of themselves but then we get back to the the nervous system example i gave you earlier on is that that can be quite confronting so then what do we want to do when things are confronting and they’re out of control we want to regain control because that will abate our nervous system so then we go and create some we go in let’s not create as manufacturers’ something as opposed to you mentioned rebirth or allow something to emerge the in

 

Anthony James 

a really important so it’s such a fine point that a lot of people are let’s make it less fine

 

 

yeah

 

Anthony James 

look this is great it gives me licence to say yeah the word solutions yeah ah gives you the shit oh i’m so backwards incoming water i’m just gonna use this particular mo because it’s arrived it’s just solutions i’m sorry gentlemen it usually because it’s people trying to be positive and that’s awesome and there are ways to regenerate life on the planet and in ourselves it is happening everywhere the opportunity is for more of us to to jump in on it there’s no question of those things but they’re not solutions and i say that because it’s akin to the linearised mechanistic western enlightenment understanding of the world where you it’s the fix problem fix solution so what if it’s more about the interconnected in between in which you create conditions that then from which emerge i mean this is all the frame you’re bringing up from which emerge just better outcomes yes but you containing conditions you’re not saying i’m going to do this to end up with that because yeah why not yeah it’s not the way the world works

 

 

but i haven’t come here to date right i’m coming in with a jillion questions have come here with an opener see where it goes

 

Anthony James 

right good yeah and so what if We get more comfortable with the solutions. were literally solution, you set conditions to dis solve the problems, because you’re going to create conditions that generate a generative of more like where we want to go together. But so it’s a massive thing. But yeah, we don’t have to make to find a point of it. I don’t think it’s actually just not the way the world works and tie some or slam this down, you know? So it’s a you’re a bloody idiot. Yeah. It’s not the way that will work. So let’s get I mean, that’s true. That’s in a sense, what we’re trying to depart from. What we’re trying to learn. was some of the problem with what where we went as a Western culture. Yes. We need to grow up from transcend take with the shore. Have it in the kid. Yeah, yeah. But I still want to take things like penicillin. Exactly. ability to bolt my leg together, well suited to PCI, well said, Yep. And then had those mechanistic things available solutions available to us. Correct. But But understand, that’s not how the world works as a whole. It’s certainly not, it’s certainly not what’s gonna prevent you going into hospitals and other institutions in the first place. Know, creating healthy environments and homes that make you healthier, by definition. So you don’t need healthcare systems. I mean, these are the things yeah, you dissolve the need for the stuff that looks like we need more funding for in many cases. Yeah, just just stop, just get rid of, to stop causing the problem, take the cause of why drag small mental ease to say so. So yeah, in that sense, we can make it a really quite a forceful point, that that’s what we’re trying to depart from. We’re trying to get to, yes. The in between, in the conditions base. Yes. Out of which healthier, more prosperous, you know, regenerating life kicks back in, you know, its own forces kick back in and we’re part of the thing again, and we don’t have to worry about how do we fertilise this bloody Paddy because it’s dead? Yeah, that it actually does the work for us in many respects. Yeah. Again, like it used to. And there’s a metaphor reckoned for everything. Yeah. For I mean, that’s life. So of course, it’s a metaphor for everything. It’s it.

 

Bryn Edwards 

I think that was one of the most confusing moments for me when I started a bit of work into horticulture to realise that most growers were growing vegetables, and not cultivating land upon which festivals were growing beautiful. Yeah, great. And I was like, but surely, and then finding out that some crops would deplete a land in five years time. And I was like, What are you gonna do in five years time? And it’s like, I wasn’t aware about that. When I get there. It’s like, isolation. Yeah. And I think in what we were just talking about, though, this is one of the things I’ve been wrestling to even describe and articulate is that our sort of definition of an expert is someone who’s reduced something. Yeah. Right down. Whether whether because they studied it, or whether they they’ve done that to be perceived as an expert. What

 

 

is a word? Yeah,

 

Bryn Edwards 

it is a word is a word. And we don’t use it. Yeah, we could use expert for a long time. But anyway, you get these always reduced nodes of information. nodes have reduced inflammation, right, which we perceive to be an expert, because you’ve gone really deep into this thing. I think we need to recognise that there is also the connector expert. So that we can pull a bunch of redo, you know, he’s an expert on this, and this and this, and this, these guys here are experts at weaving that together and seeing seeing are this bit there. There’s a bit there’s a bit there’s a bit there. You know, I’ve got a podcast coming up in a couple of weeks time with a guy from Seattle, who’s leading edge trainer of Olympic athletes, and has been the biggest advocate of looking at measuring our heart rate variability for for 20 odd years now. But I want to talk about higher heart rate variability means that I’m engaging my person sympathetic nervous system more, which means that I’m more open to stuff so it’s not just about Can I make tomorrow maximise my recovery? So I can press more in the gym so to speak, it’s kind of do this so Here in life, I’m more open. And I can be in these, you know, so it’s, it’s that sort of so is the role of the matter what is exactly is kind of half well worked out.

 

Anthony James 

That’s right now that’s exactly what

 

 

Yeah, seeing that as an expert

 

Anthony James 

Yeah, it’s beautiful and nor bison scottson buddy awesome stories from there’s one particular story I can can’t bloody I have to get it back on podcasts just even just tell this one story right I can’t remember the details of it was basically a clinic in Italy that called her up and said we’ve been practising, you know, systems thinking he does work and rah rah. And she’s like, on another one that’s gonna think I’ve got it, but my dad got it, you know? Yeah, you got two guys they have with the Cree engine, they What are we gonna say when I realised that doing something different? Because you know, it’s in the lab and everything and but they died, actually, it now they’d nailed it in a way that she rarely seen. And it was with a particular treatment. And if I could remember that really bring that thing home. But yeah, you may even talk to her before I do about it, and get the story more widely told. But basically, they found a way of treating serious physical injury, which then related to neurological because it was like, either movement of limbs or sensory abilities of limbs that were shot. And, and we’re finding a way to trigger healing properties in the body that overcame these extraordinary things. By going nowhere near the looming question. Yeah, yeah. So that was the broad punch line to it. Yeah, it it. And it’s the same with landscapes and people and like all the issues we’re facing. So it’s not, you know, climate needs renewables. I mean, yes, it does. Yeah. But it’s not. It’s not. And in fact, renewables could take Australia to the cliff, twice as fast because we’ll go like gangbusters to create renewables and fossil fuels. And that’s sort of the pattern we’ve been on might be starting to change now, hopefully, but, but it needs to change. We need to keep a holistic perspective to be able to create the conditions for life’s cysts self regulating systems to can’t kick back in. Yes. And be part of that. Family. Again, where in Western Australia, are you seeing the leading edge of that? everywhere? This is the thing like once you open the bloody Yeah, can get out? Might it’s been incredible. I mean, this is what I found myself in and how the podcast is sort of obtained to someone, maybe even a guest last year, it’s become its own thing. Like now it’s it’s a thing and I yeah, follow it.

 

 

trail of inquiry that

 

Anthony James 

Yeah, passenger on and I just mean, now it’s emergent. Yeah, and that language and and I’m a conduit. I mean, this is the language use do use as Musa is as well, like, really? You just you’re channelling you know, and in fact, I remember one night still were uploading. Yeah, a blog. You’re a conduit to stuff. You’re not making music. You’re just conduit to it. And, and Geez, that felt good as a muse. Oh, to actually understand that. Yes, it really did. It was transcendent, beautiful, rather than you to plugins and strings. Yeah. And being in a band. And you know, yeah, really. And I remember watching a bass player in another band, played heavy skin one nod was like, we sent him off knows what was going on. He said, I don’t know. I don’t know. And even playing cricket, I wrote took a catch one time as a 16 year old in cricket. I just felt the ball that sort of clap my head. But I didn’t know what was going on. Right. Yeah, I couldn’t have caught it. If I was consciously in the mode like, just that conduit metaphor is actually quite a lovely and pretty accurate type of thing to consider. It is and it knocks out the hubris and B takes out a lot of the anxiety as well. Well, that’s the performance angle exactly right on and that you don’t go and force that before you don’t go on stage and do better start rockin it straightaway. And then do it or podcast. Yeah, it’ll be done in 31 of the

 

Bryn Edwards 

one of the lesser known things. I’ve been pretty transparent on the podcast journey about different things that I’ve done in and around the podcast that’s been provoked by but one of the lesser known things was I’ve actually had two channels on the podcast right? And one of the ladies room is it 2018 for a bunch of reasons, which I won’t bore you with right now. I just fell out She put a little advert up in on her Facebook page. And I rang her up and when, right, it’s learn how to do this. So I spent four weeks, six weeks it was went to her house every Thursday morning, I think it was a Wednesday afternoon. And I was about an hour and a half and just more of like, go, like, go, be alright with channelling stuff. And and, and, you know, I didn’t suddenly just become like, the person who sits around the table who can, you know, bring onto FLN or something like that isn’t it wasn’t that it said it was, it wasn’t thought it was where, you know, you watch some of these, you know, you go on YouTube, and you can see what Abraham Hicks or someone like, this is lady who’s made millions out of Chinese stuff. But we did notice was that I just started to trust myself more, and I allowed myself to do more. And the podcast starts change. That’s when I started to move to let’s just see what’s gonna happen to you. Interesting.

 

Anthony James 

Really good. Really good. Yeah, yeah, who I’m allowing that emergent, then it is rise. And that’s what you know, I guess to get back to give you a bit more direct answer to your question about what stood out or NWA. That’s where things are happening that are standing out to me. Whether they be a Cattle Station in the Kimberley. That was a Dustbowl like forsaken, utterly abandoned southern part of our question, which many people might know, and they give her a massive, almost like the Disney. That’s unfair, but almost like the Disneyland of stations up in the Kimberley, you know, question. And in the southern part was sold off to this, this bloke and one’s family budding family and, and it was shot, like where there was water, when there’s still a bit enough for them to go, we can do this, but pretty much dust ball, and to look at it now. Wow. And not only that, but with methods now that are increasingly common around the country and around the world now that holistic methods that are bringing country back in really, it’s remarkable time, but not that repeatedly would be the defining characteristic of it’s just life coming back, but but it’s faster as it happens. What do you know? Yeah, so that’s pretty hopeful. And then whether it’s down to, you know, the restoration stuff happening down south with guanling, which is just on the regeneration, where it’s 1000 kilometre stretch of country down south to south part of wha massive sway the country where they’re connecting farmers, miners, First Nations, investors, community groups, conservation groups, communities, funded philanthropists, like the whole kid, just again, creating the conditions linking up this whole sort of thing out of which the reconnecting landscapes, so they’re not just sort of fragments of an old ecosystem, functioning ecosystems, inside of which we’d have farming happen, where it should in the way it should, and much better than it has been ago, the Salton communities disappearing, and so forth. So turning that around to and again, in remarkably short time, in a way. I mean, you talk about turning around First Nations colonial relations in remarkably short time, that isn’t that an achievement in itself, and then, of course, what they do now with their recovered landscapes, and that they have control of those to be able to conduct their own education processes and enterprises out of which is still seriously problematic with Native Title and so forth, that they can’t do anything with this button because I don’t own it in the way that you know, we recognise etc. Huge stuff happening in remarkably short timeframes on the back of trust, connection, reconnection, real relationship, and I mean, across the spectrum there amongst people across cultures, with landscapes with animals. And just getting better at sensing the way forward getting better at not reacting to triggers. Whatever triggers they are your own fears, someone’s someone’s view on one particular thing, like just not, gets taken away by that. Stick together, be gentle. And it just it creates the space it creates the conditions. So that’s what stood out to me around wi where the stuff that you’ll see actually happening that’s looks extraordinary. But in another respect is just life happening again.

 

 

Yes,

 

Anthony James 

but in some ways, extraordinary because of what’s in black magic. very important point totally available to us all if we can just keep practising that art which is one practising and we don’t know yeah yeah i mean i’m right in there with everybody else trying to try to figure it out and try to do a better job at it but i guess to touch off on something else you were alluding to earlier the people who are playing more of that role includes people there that that i mean they’re gone vinelink project with a whole bunch of projects really and they’re playing that overarching connector role and and arguably you know folk like us playing our little role amongst the team as well in those sorts of one isn’t and i know others are as well you know they’re not on a payroll of any one in particular they hope they’re sort of working in an emerging livelihood in that sense as the emerging economy if you like comes on as well but just on that by the way we didn’t even use that word economy before the second world war so now i’d like to get back to society actually or something more like this you know just talk about what it is yeah what is abstraction of

 

 

interesting anyway

 

Anthony James 

we didn’t use the word risk much until the 80s bang yeah nice point so there’s something there to keep us grounded in what really what is the real world

 

 

yeah

 

Anthony James 

that we are neither asking stories separate peel that back and that’s where the language is important and of course we’re languages including first nations are so important not just for them but for us yeah and what again what a beautiful opportunity to turn that around that we would have still hundreds of languages available on this continent for all of us wow pity we sort of you know put such a dent in them i mean pity again underline but that where we go from today and you know some of the stuff happening down south on language reclamation extraordinary kim scott the wheelman languages project right blow your mind and what it’s doing for communities then in terms of not just their healing but then the reconnection with country that may have had massacre 100 or so for yeah enabling them to reconnect with that country the hammond eridu i mean again i don’t want to idealise that that may have imagined a fraud that is it’s yeah processes on processes but wow at the same time if you’re going that you’re going there and it’s powerful and you know it’s going home yeah no it’s the right direction and and that matters so much to all of us as we try and find our way not only to that sort of i guess spirit camp sort of home to use tyson’s again but but but to the literal sense of what does it mean to live in australia you know that europeans are now of the asians and everybody else is trying to come to terms with yeah it’s different continent that burns and now floods you know like it’s hasn’t known for some time

 

 

there anything else we

 

 

should talk about

 

Anthony James 

are we i feels like it feels like a full circle it does and that is it does the last question i do all right well my guess is if we can and it’s the hypothetical question which i enjoy finishing on so we could just chill everyone out to sit still five or 10 minutes and consider one question which you upload into the collective consciousness what would that be yeah well if we take this motif from archie rose that the elders in the land is waiting for us to come home the question would be for people where would you go and what would you do to attend that place it’s a question for me anyway what would you do to 10 fireplace care for country

 

 

that’s beautiful

 

Anthony James 

because if there’s one thing i’m quite sensitive about at the moment is that it seems that we’re pulled so much into the present that we’re ignoring our past and have little vision of our future there’s more and more so to consider where would you go and how would you tend to start to paint that vision right on yeah yep and and connect you to everything that’s made that place that all firepit everywhere who knows how many 10s of 1000s of years ultimately this particular landscape let alone the billions that wi demand has existed billions were standing what’s crossed your front doorstep

 

 

why front dogs their output

 

Anthony James 

yeah these days i mean that’s beautiful isn’t it that you could be connected to that neat time and end to a vision of the future yeah that’s more of our making in terms of what really counts not just where we’re getting taken by yeah systems lenses that really need to shift but hang on for that last moment in the sun and the clouds as they might be at the moment with federal politics for example no there’s a beautiful thing over here

 

 

yeah

 

Anthony James 

i’ve really enjoyed this made to me thanks for coming up

 

 

thank you very much my pleasure people want to find you

 

Anthony James 

well it’s either regeneration calm spelled region narration as in story or changing the story or wherever you find your podcasts the regeneration yep

 

 

thank you so much for your time

 

Anthony James 

thanks Bryn

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