#194 – A yarn with Tyson Yunkaporta

This week I enjoyed a far-ranging yarn with Tyson Yunkaporta – member of the Apalech Clan, Senior Lecturer in Indigenous Knowledge at Deakin University and author of the book Sand Talk: How Indigenous Thinking Can Save the World (which he’s suggests you shouldn’t buy but borrow from a friend).

In this conversation we cover a lot of ground including the impact of an extraction economy, the rise and fall of civilisations and where we are in the that cycle, a deeper history of Britain, ask where the grown-ups have gone, our trajectory from the printing press, systems, the 1000 year clean up and much more.

I also learnt a huge amount about Western Australia, seeing it from a different perspective.

Tyson mixes his wealth and depth of knowledge together with his great sense of humour and openness to share to make for a great yarn that will take you on a journey.

Read Full Transcript

Bryn Edwards 

This week I had tonnes of fun having a yarn with Mr. Tyson Yunkaporta, who is a member of the Apalech clan, also senior lecturer of indigenous knowledge at Deakin University and also author of the book Sand Talk: How Indigenous Thinking Can Save the World, which is a book he suggests you don’t buy, but borrow for friend. And this was a far ranging yarn that covered loads of things. We had a real deep dive into WA, we looked at the impact of an extractive economy, we look at the rise and fall of civilization, systems, Britain, emergence, the impact of writing things down.

 

It was a very far ranging and a lots of fun and well worth the time listening to. Tyson’s a real giggle to chat to and he brings a whole lot of information is densely packed. But yes, it’s a good giggle and well well worth listening to. So enjoy Tyson.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Hello, and welcome back to WA Real. I’m your host Bryn Edwards Today I have the great pleasure of speaking with Tyson Yunkaporta. Tyson. Welcome to the show.

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

Hey, good to be here. Thank you very much. I do love WA.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Yeah. What is it about WA you enjoy?

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

A numeral booja I haven’t. Um, I haven’t spent much time often on our country over the elect. I’ve kind of touristed through other places. But yeah, but I’ve been brought in quite strongly to join I’m really grateful for everything I’ve learned over there some pretty spectacular I’m working a fair bit though with them and Polina at the moment though, and you know she’s from up north there year and the Fitzroy River and all that kind of thing. co working on regenerative songlines and things around that you know figuring out how to assert first law yeah First Peoples law without going through Native Title or anything like that. Okay, actually just asserting that and always have it on the map which is pretty cool. I do love why I’m coming over media.

 

 

Yeah,

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

yeah. I’m allowing myself to to two travels this year. And while limiting travel as much as possible one of them is going to be over to where you are because it’s pretty special over there. You know the lights different? Yeah, I can notice it being an East Coast person and you come over and even the light is different. The sky is different and on the contrary there there’s a really strong sort of feminine spirit in the land which is which is very very much dominant there on your country and it’s there’s an embrace to it. That’s pretty it’s pretty lovely. hikes if you’re black snakes, they behave weirdly.

 

 

And what why?

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

Well, everything’s upside down and why like frickin you know, so over here are black snakes are right up these coasts. north to south, the black snakes roll really shy.

 

 

Yeah.

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

And you know, you make a bit of noise and they get out of your way they take off. Yeah, but it’s like so you know, you do that you stop or you tap a stick on the ground to get rid of the black snakes. Or the first time ever walk in country? The the above remote girl, what are you doing? That’s kawara what you’re doing now but what do you want the black snakes to come and bite us? Because they get attracted to the vibration, you know? Come and do guides or whatever you call them. There they come. They come and get you. Yeah, but then at the same time, your rainbow snake there is all dopey like, you know it’s like he’s like oh anything you know that but the rainbow snake over here on the East Coast you don’t mess with him. You don’t even want to go down to the water’s edge if you’ve been eating some meat and you got a bit of grease on your mouth you might come up and get your butt over there. He’s like really kind and benevolent. like wow, your rainbow snakes nice over here. Yes, it’s like and as a result the light is different. The water is different. You know the sand is different. It’s like being on another planet. And we don’t need to go to Mars. I just got to Perth Same deal on there and see how he goes. Yeah, anyway.

 

 

I think only his remote over here.

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

I suppose but remote from where? Yeah, training. We’re remote from you.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Yeah, yeah.

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

I’m here in Melbourne and Melbourne is pretty remote from Perth.

 

 

Yeah, true. I

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

suppose it depends where the centre of what The value is. But I mean, I see, you know, the wealth of knowledge over there, I see myself as being remote from that mindset, having been a couple of years removed from that, and really just longing to get back and re establish those connections and continue with my learning there. Yeah, yeah.

 

Bryn Edwards 

So what are some of the things you had to pick up over here when

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

you come? Ah, well, I was, there was a progression of learning. Sorry, I should. So I’m a Busan country over 3,000k sail from from upon Tyson overboard, I belong now pledge clan, I spent a lot of time a life of like, quite intense disruption that I see as as kind of an enormous gift because I’ve been able to, you know, go round and learn from a lot of different people and be in a lot of different places and, and your place over there, where you’re lucky enough to be, you know, living on that country. You know, that that’s one of them. And I guess I had a number of elders and knowledge keepers taking me through a lot of a lot of things there, you know, so taking me out to sites, you know, sites where there’s a twin site, right over on the East Coast, and where I’ve been through that business there and that site, and then I’d know that elders just smell it on you over there. They know, you know, but then they take me to that same site, and but we’re camping the night before, and, and they so we’ll take you there and sleep first, and then they sort of spirit walk you there in your sleep first. So sort of to do a run through. And, you know, and you you know, so there’s, there’s there’s two paths, you know, going to this site and and you take the wrong one in sleep, and then you know, you wake up in the morning, and the officers are looking at you and they say, so when we go there today, you make sure you go west, not East with that path. Okay, because that’s where you went wrong last night. Ah, anyway, yeah, I went through like a lot of songlines, and a series of sites and learnings there that were, you know, building to this big waggle place. I supposed to be able to go and actually see him, you know, and, and but then I lost my job and at the time, and, and then I couldn’t get there. Again, I didn’t have the resources. So that’s been kind of cut off for a couple of years. But I am looking forward to getting back for a few days and just reconnecting. And I’ll probably have to start over again. And it’ll be another seven years of that until I get back to where. But that’s all right. Yeah, it’s just, I guess it’s the process of coming to knowledge. And so,

 

 

yes,

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

you know, that that’s where that’s where it is, you know, it’s just so you know, it makes you who and what you are as a human being, you know, yes, that knowledge transmission that’s intergenerational. You know, that’s what we are. And when we’re in it, and we’re doing that we, we are satisfied. There’s something about ceremony, though. Yeah. Now, I don’t know, I’ve been thinking about it lately, because I’ve been looking. When I’m looking at Tech. Yes, you know, especially social media and stuff like that. But not only that, like, you know, tick tock and YouTube and how those algorithms sort of learn you and figure out the best way to hijack your limbic system. I’ve been looking at that purely in biological and scientific terms, just to sort of see what it looks like through that lens. And there’s something about when you’re with somebody, so if I stopped personality mirroring you now? Yeah, you know what I mean? If I did the same, I do these little micro nods, and I lift my eyebrows off it. You can’t help it, even though I’m telling you, I’m doing it. You feel good. I could see in your eyes, your eyes are shining, you know what I mean? Is that and then you’re given that back to me. And we’re in this loop, right? So in this loop, where I’m feeling good, because you’re doing eyebrows up, and I’m doing my eyebrows up, and we’re passing that back and forth. So there’s some part of your mind that goes, Oh, this person’s good. This person’s a friend. Like me, you know, we’re connecting, you know, and so it, you get that reinforcement, but then when you pass that back and forth, it becomes a feedback loop. Now, when you’re doing that with 50 to 100 people, and everybody’s doing what you’re doing. I mean, really, you’re just doing what everyone else is doing. Correct, but the feeling for you is that everybody He’s doing what you’re doing. And it puts you in another place. It kind of like, just takes over your entire limbic system and it lifts you into another state. I mean, biologically speaking, I mean, from my ontology, and my indigenous knowledge, I’d say that that’s spirit coming down, you know, everybody coming into that, that halfway place between worlds or even another world, you know, but if everybody’s, everybody’s doing that, together, and you’re doing that, everybody’s doing that, and it’s going round around, then you’ve got that, that little thing that we experienced that feed back loop between you and me, just with our eyebrows a second ago, you got that multiplied by a million. And it’s, it’s so much, it’s so much better than than what your YouTube algorithm can give you, you know, that little hitch you get when someone likes the same thing you like, or, you know, so we get that online. And that gets hijacked just to sell us disinformation. But but it ceremony is this, you know, you can see what the evolutionary purpose of that, you know, yeah, that social, you know, feedback loop, and the way that can connect biologically through your limbic system to put you in another state, you know? Yeah. And I missed that from from NWA, there’s just a, I think it’s because of that feminine spirit of country, there are no, no butcher, this is something there’s something about it, there’s something about the the lovingness in support of people who are in that space, there’s, there’s a, there’s a, there’s a special quality to it, that doesn’t quite exist anywhere else. You know, I can’t put my finger on what it is. But I think it’s just a different frequency. When I say the lights different, like I, I swear, like the photons are moving at a different wave frequency there. I swear, it’s different way.

 

Bryn Edwards 

And the sky is so much bigger,

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

the sky is freaking big. I say, Well, it’s because there aren’t trees and infrastructure in the way it’s like, no, because I can be in you know, like a forest of like a man that forest, the Jim woods, the dominant species in that place. Best frickin wood I’ve ever carved with, by the way, I love that. And I’m there. And you know, maybe can’t even see the sky, but you still have a sense of the sky being bigger. Yeah. You know. And I don’t know if there’s a physics to that, or if it’s just a completely other thing, but I believe it has something to do with the light. And I just I love being it’s puts me in a very different feeling for place than I’ve ever experienced before.

 

 

Yeah, it’s

 

Bryn Edwards 

it’s awesome to say this, because so I’ve lived here for 10 years. I came from England. Yeah. And,

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

and I’ve been there too, though, that’s very frickin different.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Let’s stay here and who for a minute? Yeah. And it’s been a real journey over the last 10 years of living here. It’s been up and down, up and down. And, and more and more and more, particularly since I started the podcast decided to connect to the people. More and more and more it it honestly feels like who is seeping its way? into me. And yeah, and into me, and. And then that gets reflected in maybe the people that come on the podcast, maybe the people that I meet the way I go about things, and there’s been this, it’s been really, really opened up to it’s interesting to talk about feminine energy, because we’ve been really opened up to really subtle, delicate. nuances. Yeah. More and more.

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

Hmm, it’s weird, because there’s, everything’s intensified there. Because people are responding to that energy. And there, there are amazing responses to that energy, where you’ll see you know, sometimes you’ll see the infrastructure of that place responding to the energy there. So you’ll see you’ll be standing on a Swan River and looking across it were the boys you know, prep site for initiation first stage initiation was and there was a there was a private Boys High School on that site. Yeah, you know, and then you look to the girls equivalent, and goodness me but there’s a private Girls High School, got on that site, you know, and then you, you look at the place where you’re standing to see that and you go Ah, Okay, so this is a park, you know, they’ve just kind of left this one empty, they haven’t got swings or anything on it. It’s just a park. And lots of people walk through this every day. And there’s really strong sort of some lines and lines of energy running through it. And that’s a place of law for marriage law.

 

 

Yeah,

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

you know, with Crow and white cockatoo business there. You know, it’s a very sacred site for marriage law. And lo and behold, that’s the place you can get a permit. And, you know, almost everybody in Perth gets married there in that park. Yeah. So there’s on this, on some level, people are responding in sublime ways to their energies. And they’re either moving with the energies like that unconsciously, or they are

 

 

just

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

desperately fighting those energies. Yes. And seeking to destroy them. Because they might decide No, we’re going to build a brewery on top of this rainbow snake site. We are going to, you know, it’s some of the most horrendous racism you find anywhere in Australia. It’s basically you’ve got Perth, and you’ve got Cannes, and they’re like, fighting each other for first place. races. It’s so funny when you bring like when you take like a middle class person from the south, the southeast of Australia, when you take them to Cannes or Perth, for the first time, just that their response to their shock at just a blatant racism. You know, we’re walking around long. Yeah, you know, the motels are segregated process. That’s how that works. You know, we go on that side of the motel or even, you know, a lot of motels in Cannes will have another motel across the road where there’s no black farmers. I know. So I rock up with a bunch of people from university, you know, like white lecturers and stuff. And they’re all and you know, the staff is humming and hiring because they’re taking a group booking. But they have to send me across the road. Yeah. And and I don’t know, we don’t bear up about that up. No, we’re not discussing this is terrible. It’s just like, Yeah, no, that’s, that’s our place over there. We want to go there and with the blank villas anyway, so it kind of, you know, very accepting of the racism that you get someone from, I mean, the first time I took my woman up back home, and we stopped there in Cannes, and you know, she spent most of her life in Victoria. She’s from Central Queensland, but she spent most of her life in Victoria. First time up there. And it’s like, you know, 20 minutes in where she’s getting a bag checked at the shop. And none of the people in front of her in the line got it checked and other people behind it. And she’s all like, you know, hey, what’s this going on here? This is racist to me. And I’m like, Can we go and go, we don’t do that either. We just like, kind of just let him check our bags and keep going. But she’s like, No, I’ve had Fuck this. But you know, um, Perth is like, I don’t know, I think Perth is worse in a lot of ways. You know, like, Perth is the place we, you know, you’ll be walking along. I mean, walking on the side of the road, with the mob there. And it’s not unusual to be spat on, but passing cars there. And this, this, this, this sadness, but a kind of almost an acceptance of what yeah, that’s what happens when you walk along side of the road. Yeah, people will spit on you and yell things from the car. You know, it’s, um, it’s a it’s a weird and wonderful, exciting, beautiful, peaceful, horrendous place birth. It is

 

Bryn Edwards 

that they can be these absolute moments of beauty and nature. And, and art and creation. Yeah. And then the next minute.

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

Yeah, yeah, it all only functions because there is a an extractive growth based economy. Correct. on top. So all of your infrastructure is based on that. All of your daily interactions based on that and tracked through a currency that’s part of a growth based economy. Yeah. And that depends on extraction, like, particularly in Australia, more than as much as more than anywhere else.

 

 

Yeah.

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

But the only difference is that Australia is one of those rare nations that gets to extract its own stuff and keep you know, and its own rich people get to keep the proceeds of that and make the GDP look bigger. You know, that’s, that’s the only difference. We haven’t got a foreign power coming in and taking all of that although I think under half the people in Perth would try and tell you that Asia is doing that. And they must be stopped this Asian invasion. Asian invasion

 

Bryn Edwards 

It’s interesting. It’s also interesting what you’re saying about the the two, you know, the two forces coming together as well,

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

that economic system demands a caste system. Yes, it has to have a caste system, because in order for anything to have a price and therefore value, it needs to be read at any economics textbook. If so, well, how do you price things, you can only price something by making it illimitable and excludable. Yet, you have to create artificial scarcities, you have to create a situation where there’s more demand and supply, which means you’ve got to have at least half the people missing out. Yeah, how do you determine who the bottom half is, it’s going to miss out like on almost everything that needs to survive? Well, you need a caste system in place, you need to be able to group people in all these different identities. And then you need to decide which ones have have less cultural capital than the others. And that’s, unfortunately, that’s just what you need for growth based economy. So um, that’s just what is, it’s not because, you know, people just need to increase their awareness that they need to do some more cultural awareness training, and oh, my God, I didn’t realise about my privilege, like, everybody knows what their privileges are, you know, it doesn’t change anything to become aware of that. Yeah. And he can be as aware as you like, but there’s the systems of inequality that demand these things continue. And yet people will enforce them. Whereas people who are in danger of losing their shit, who are going to most rigorously enforce that. And so that’s where you’re going to get you more marginal settler groups are going to police those things more vigorously than anyone else. That’s your kind of frontline.

 

Bryn Edwards 

It’s fascinating that you’ve just gone straight to the system level. Yeah, one of the things I’m finding at the mat or I’m becoming super sensitive about is that everything feels like it’s being pushed on to the individual. Yeah. And right down to so I have a I have an emerging hypothesis that our rising mental health issues, whether it’s depression, anxiety, suicide, is, is almost an appropriate response to a system that’s failing. Like we’re Canary birds in the mineshaft, right? Yeah. Yet, if you look at any of the information or knowledge about mental health, it’s all put on to the individual, you know, Yeah, yep. sighs do the meditation take your mental health Seriously, this than the other? But at no point? Do we sit back and go? Hang on a minute? Why so many people depressed? Why so many people anxious? Why so many people taking their own lives? Maybe because the pool in which we’re swimming is a bit fucked? Yeah. How do you see that?

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

I, I see that variously depending on who I’m talking to, it’s, it’s really weird, you just look at it for a multitude of lenses. But in the end, you know, as an individual, and even as a community, you don’t get to choose now, you know, the poison that’s gonna kill you, you know, you can notice it, and then see how you can do jitsu your way around it as much as possible, but that’s about it. Yeah, you know, I don’t know, we’re supposed to distract ourselves by looking sideways, and try to find the evil in each other brothers and sisters all around us from different cultures and, and to punish those things, and, you know, monitor those things, and have everybody on their toes all the time, so that we’re all looking that way, rather than looking up. You know, cuz I guess if everybody looked up at the same time, or in our stuff, this, you know, this all going to go, then then it would all go, but that’s not going to happen, because we’re all going to be far too suspicious of each other. And far too, policing of each other. And, and I don’t know, we get our attitudes, you know, we get this catastrophizing kind of thing going on there, or everyone we look at, it’s like, well, they’re, they’re like, you know, an existential threat to us just for seeing in a different way. And that’s what we do. And that’s not a natural human way of doing things. That’s not what we’re patterned to do as a species. You know, although every, you know, when we were caveman theory, that all the disciplines are based on will tell you that you look and try and find the studies where that’s proven in some way. And it’s not, you know, it’s a very, very shaky baseline data, that To try and tell us that we’re naturally Zena phobic, and that we’re naturally constantly in a state of fight or flight and that we’re naturally you know, This future eaters species that’s like, doomed to destroy the earth because we were silly enough to come down from the trees. And, you know, we can’t help it, we can’t help ourselves. You know, it’s all of us as a massive, bloody anthros that are perceiving the world. And it’s like, nah. That’s not what we’re patent to do. We’re patent to be a custodial species. And I guess that’s my translation of, of that what that one thing that common continental common law that’s all over Australia, and that comes everywhere on that serpent dreaming, but you know, in on your country there on the country where you’re staying right now. That story that they call it, the carriers for everything. As a translation into English, there’s that concept of the carriers for everything, that that’s the humans raw, you know, that comes out of that first man first woman story? Yeah. Yeah. But that’s not, you know, so we’re patent to be that we’re not patent to be, you know, what this kind of pseudo science is telling us the wet pattern to be, so that, you know, a handful of ourselves can do whatever it is that they’re trying to bloody do, I don’t know, gather everything on our planet to themselves for what and I don’t know. You know, we have to believe in their mythology of who we are, you know, in order to support them to do that, in order to burn our lives and our lands and our children. Just for them. I don’t know, it’s a weird, weird little cult, that’s come out of the weird people, capital W, capital I capital E, capital R, capital D, Western, educated, industrialised rich, democratic, people who was dead is a very unusual way of thinking, you know, most of the people in the on the planet don’t have that pattern of cognition, but it is the dominant culture for the planet. Yes, and we all have to live beneath it systems and institutions, every single country, it doesn’t matter if you’re a tiny little place in Africa or anywhere else. You, if you want to have a chance to actually exist, then you have to have their institutions, you have to have things that look like schools that look like local councils that look like Parliament’s that look like banks, that look like hospitals that look like grid grid system, you know, patterns for your towns, you know, postal services, you have to have you have to have all these little different institutions in place. And preferably some kind of Abrahamic religion.

 

 

Yeah,

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

if you can, but that doesn’t, that doesn’t necessarily work everywhere. You know, and, yeah, and you have to be networked in, and you have to become part of ridiculously complicated, not complex, complicated and clunky supply chains, you have to be at the mercy of those and become part of that ridiculous ecosystem. Yeah, because all of that is, you know, feeding, you know, through subsidies and everything else, back into these coffers of about 80 people on the planet. And every disaster you get just is, is a way of transferring a bit more wealth from from the land. And in from the lower caste, people, like the lower 90% of people are transferring it from them upwards. Every time you vote, you’re only voting for 10% you’re voting for, you know, your verify how that 10% of the planet is going to keep. I keep racking it, basically, half of that 10% will will tell you a story of will will use welfare rhetoric in order to maintain the caste system and the other half of that of that 10% will use trickle down economic theory, and, you know, Indian rugged individualism as their rhetoric to reinforce their caste system, you know, and you can vote for which brand you like, but they’re all in the same boat. And they all have the same goal, the same ends and it is to maintain that infinite growth model. Because that’s the extractive model. And I suppose isn’t, maybe there’s an end game, maybe there isn’t, maybe it’s just a self organising system. That sort of was put in place with a system of perverse incentives that just I was raised, and ratcheted its way up to where we are. Now.

 

Bryn Edwards 

That’s sounds really interesting because I encounter A lot of people who, particularly over the last 12 months, have strongly engaged with conspiracy theories of, you know, yeah, this is a small group of people a cabal that runs the world, and, you know, we’re all at their bidding. And I wonder sometimes whether, you know, I mean, that’s in it, it’s easy to dive into that because then all of a sudden, there’s a dam and a nose and this that the other and I’m now segregated because I’m not part of them that are running the world. But I also sometimes wonder whether like you just said this, these chaotic patterns that have started off with something quite small, many centuries ago, and and have grown and grown and grown and grown and grown and grown and grown it the more I have thought about this, and the more I started to go back and consider, you know, not just the extractive part, but also the colonisation you know, as we now fight from having our our consciousness colonised by social media, and this sort of the sort of theory that it came out of watching the social dilemma film, my immediate reaction was, Oh, my gosh, our, our, our unconscious, is being swapped. Yeah. Technology thing. And, and yeah, then if I go back, and back, and back, and back and back, you know, through different empires and stuff like that, it’s, we’ve been at this colonising game. When I say way, I said, me the wired, weird. This colonising game has been played out over and over and over and over again. And, and I wonder sometimes, whether it’s not trying to abdicate people’s responsibility, but I wonder whether it’s like this perpetuating as I see it as like this whirlwind that keeps picking up and picking up and picking up. And it started somewhere. And Fertile Crescent. Yeah. And and it’s just, and here we are century, you know, millennia Iran. And this is, you know, is this the blunt end of it? Or is there even more layers to go? I mean, I found it super interesting. When I was reading your book, that delineation between oral traditions and writing shit down. I was like, Whoa, I think I sat with that for a couple of days. And just extrapolated out what that meant. And it wasn’t difficult to go from there to here.

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

Well, that was the thing that created the weird cognition. Yeah, Western educated, industrialised rich, democratic, is a different form of cognition. Yes. And it was, you know, it started when Martin Luther banged his note up on the door. Yeah. And so you ended up with Protestantism coming about when, when Protestant ism came about, there was a, it coincided with the arrival of the printing press. Yeah, so there was this big drive to like, everybody should be literate. So they can have their own personal relationship with God. And they can read the Bible for themselves. And they can read analysis and do analysis for themselves to find their own way through and their own direct path to God. And this is something unheard of, in human history, the idea that people would have an individual sort of way of being in the world, and an individual relationship with the divine, that would allow them to move through the world without being accountable to a collective at all. And that’s when that happened. And everybody had to follow suit. So you know, so they started all these schools that were basically just teaching literacy, so that people could read what was coming off the printing presses, which is interesting, because it was pretty much that was your first conspiracy theories. Yeah, we’re coming off, like most of what came off, the printing presses is pretty much Q and on the, you know, mediaeval version, you know. So people were reading that and the Bible and the Catholic Church had to follow suit and actually start up the Catholic schools as well, because they had to remain competitive. So everybody gains this literacy and the literacy itself rewires your brain. So it actually thickens it physically thickens the connection between the left and right side of your brain, which is naturally quite a flimsy little thing. Yes, but it thickens it physically, biologically. It causes things to be moved around. So your facial recognition. Facial recognition stuff has to be moved. from the right side to the left side, you know, for example, you know, because there’s no room for it there, that’s being used now for something else. And so that means, you know, if you become literate, suddenly your facial recognition is shedding. Yeah, it gets really bad. You don’t have that skill anymore. Yeah, so we’re all you’re walking around in a world of faceless people, focusing on yourself as an individual on a hero’s journey to find God. Now, that’s gonna end up nowhere good. He’s suddenly got all these raggedy individuals in the Northern Hemisphere sort of walking around doing that. And spreading that, then, you know, I mean, genocides will ensue. And some pretty horrendous stuff. I mean, civilization itself, as it began in that Fertile Crescent, in what we call the Middle East now, you know, you know, a 10,000 year old experiment that always fails, you know, 500 to 1000 years, every one of these civilizations must collapse, you know, because it collapses under the laws of physics, you just can’t outsource your entropy forever. Yes, you know, I mean, unless you can spread your extractive activities further and further afield. But the further afield you go over the frontier, the further away from the sphere of trust and control you get, and things become fragile. But they have managed through, you know, global communications and, you know, private armies and, and all kinds of stuff going on, and particularly nuclear weapons, you managed to make a global net around the world, whereby the entropy can keep getting outsourced further and further afield. Yes, they can just move that you could just externalise all your harm away from your clean technocratic spaces for a very small percentage of the population. And basically, you know, the top 50% of people who are weird, they get to enjoy spaces that are so nice that they never ever, they can live their whole life without ever getting punched in the face. You know, it’s I keep meeting people who have never ever been punched in the face, like holy shit, you know, heard that, and they’ve completely and the idea of violence is just terrifying to them stuff. No, that’s, that’s bad. That’s like evil, that’s anti human. Yes. And, you know, so rather than, you know, in a natural system, in a complex system, violence is evenly distributed throughout the system, and therefore does minimal damage. But in the weird model, it gets concentrated into these piles, and then the entropy, that there, the damage from all that stuff that keeps getting outsourced elsewhere as externalities that are, you know, deployed and explode, detonated, like fire as far away from the centre as possible. So, you know, this particular civilization has got to, it’s got to live past its use by date, you know, as no other civilization before has, and it’s done that it just keeps coming up with new ways to do it, temporary sort of ways, that actually create more and more runaway entropy to the point that, you know, in the last four decades, we’ve lost 60% of the biodiversity on the planet, you know, they harnessed the energy that could I mean, they couldn’t have slaves anymore. So they harness the energy of ghosts, slaves, lot of energy to run a civilization. So they did the ghost slave was choose, you know, the spirit of things long dead, you know, beneath the ground, that create fossil fuels. And so they burn that spirit. They book they using harnessing Nobel slave energy, but you know, there are externalities from that, that go into the atmosphere, you know, that acidify? Like waters and, you know, change climate and dry continents out and all these kind of horrendous things. But every civilization does that you go to the earliest ones like rock you ever heard of rock, not. Go check out that dig site. Check out the primary sources that were writing about the bloody paradise that that was in initially. Now it’s like, you’ll see a few walls and pottery shards and ceramics and a few bits of golden stuff. Lying in the middle of a desert. It wasn’t a frickin desert before. Yeah, you read about all these early civilizations in the Bible. And they’re in like, you know, these beautiful big forests and pasture lands, all this sort of thing and but that Kinda that you go there now and it’s just bloody blasted dead exposed Earth. You know, that’s what civilization does to land. Yeah. And that’s what’s happening right now in Perth. Yes. And you’re part of the world is drying out because of it? Yes. And in a few decades, where you are is going to be virtually unlivable before the kind of society that you built there. Yeah, you know, you will not have the water to keep, you know, having your food bowl that you’ve got there. You know, the wheat wheat belt, do you call it?

 

 

Yeah, the wheat belt? Yeah,

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

the wheat belts gonna be like a wheat bracelet in a couple of decades. You know? What, are you going to do that? Well, you are going to keep for as long as you can, like, you have to destroy the entire Kimberley first. Yeah. Because there’s all there. And that or is what’s going to get Australia through this 10 year depression. That’s that starting now. You know, so the kimberleys will have to be destroyed, and those Aboriginal lands and communities will have to be destroyed. In order for you to be able to keep having your house there. Yeah, and somehow shipping enough water or, I don’t know, getting desalination plants going. Yeah, that will give you enough water just just to be able to drink to maintain your lifestyle there. But, you know, a lot of people are, you know, I see a lot of elders who are identifying where their strong underground water is, that’s nowhere near any mineral resources that anybody could want. Yeah, and just quietly, not telling anybody about that, and gradually moving, you know, things over their structures to live in. Yeah, just just quietly under the radar, moving some guns and stuff onto that site and having that place ready to go to because they’re like, Well, you know, it’ll, it’ll, it’ll be any time in the next few years. We’re gonna have to disappear out to there.

 

Bryn Edwards 

interesting you say that? Because I had? Yeah, I actually had Shawn Nana, nos nephew,

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

I on the podcast a couple of weeks ago.

 

Bryn Edwards 

And he said something upon the assembler about, you know,

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

I’d say hi to him for me when in museum. I will. It’s been a few years.

 

 

And

 

Bryn Edwards 

he was saying how, you know, life lives on and he said, at some point, you’ll notice me and the rest of the family will head over the hills. Yeah. We’ll be gone then.

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

Yeah. So proper, like prepper family?

 

 

Yes. Yeah.

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

sensible. preppers. But, you know, also, there’s nothing sensible about telling people that you’re going to do that, though. I don’t know why they’re doing that. I think they’re just very compassionate. And they just want to let other people know that that’s happening so that they can make the preparations to yet in doing that you’re really risking your own place. Yes. You know, cuz you look at anywhere where the civilization falls apart. You know, so you look at the way that’s happened in the Baltics or the states and or Argentina is a really good example. So you look at the most recent examples of that and your best chance of survival was not having you know, food sovereignty out in the countryside somewhere. You know, those people were the first to die. Because the first thing that happens when everything falls apart in that civilization is you get two roving gangs of bandits just basically raping and pillaging over the countryside, living off everybody else’s prepping, you know, off their orchards and daughters and bunkers and anything else.

 

 

Yes.

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

Anywhere where that stockpot the people who actually had the best chance of survival were the ones who stayed in the cities. Right, and, you know, caught pigeons and ate their dogs and you know, actually, you know, collectivised in neighbourhoods and got together and protected each other that way. And, but that only works if you’re waiting out, you know, the period of chaos for, you know, the state to reassert, you know, a kind of blanket of law in order to kind of sit there survive that few years until, until that comes back into place. Yeah, but yeah. If we’re ever looking at a situation where that’s gone forever, you know, the, the nation state sort of command and control structures, then it’s a different different prospect. Yeah, but I don’t see that as something that could possibly wink out overnight, barring some massive global catastrophic event, like a electromagnetic magnetic pulse from the sun that wipes out all the electronics and yeah, you know, or something like that. Yeah, I don’t see that kind of happening all in one go. I see it sort of fizzling out like, stupidly in dignified ways over a number of decades. Yeah. And everybody gradually adapting to that. But people will have to realise that they need to become more mobile, and that there are a lot of really good mindsets and ways of being in the world that that you can learn from refugees, for example. Yeah, I’ve already been through this. Yeah. There are a lot of I’ve got a mate who’s he’s got an architecture firm, where they basically build moveable buildings, beautiful, affordable, moveable dwellings, you know, that you can sort of ship away from a coastline pretty easily within a couple of weeks. Wow. Yeah. No, he’s doing really well with that, actually.

 

Bryn Edwards 

So here’s, here’s a question. That, and maybe we answered this already. But I’ve been toying with for a while is, wherever all the grown ups gone? Because, yeah, it strikes me at times that we, you and I talking about this now. And to me, there’s, there’s a sense of felt truth in it. And yet to a lot of others, they’ll sort of come close to it, and then it will be traumatic. So we’ll want to go away from it. Yeah. And, and it strikes me that we’ve had this sort of cycle of pandering to that, that trauma, traumatic experience, and like always, it’s all a bit much. Yeah. But when I say wherever the grown ups got on it, I mean, like, the ones who say, Well, I’m sorry, if you’re finding it traumatic, but it’s actually part of your graph. Yeah.

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

Well, look, anyone who starts making sense like that, they immediately get removed from their community by the marketplace. Yeah, it’s like, you know, they get turned into these reluctant gurus and have to spend all their time doing fucking interviews like this, instead of actually doing something in their communities, you know, like, anybody that you know, someone decides, is making sense, and therefore, they have value. Well, in order for that to be priced, like I said, before, they have to be limited and excludable. And so you immediately have to exclude that person’s communication and knowledge from the bottom 50% of the population, and then sell it to everyone on the top 50% of the population, but make sure that person’s message is being controlled by the top 10%. Yes, who are controlled by the top 1%. So you know, it’s, it’s like, basically, you’re constantly being funnelled into this command and control structure. And that’s and it’s, it’s not, you know, a roomful of people doing this. Like I said, it’s self organising now that all the algorithms are these platforms are doing that automatically now. Yeah. And, and pretty much just wiping out any kind of community wisdom or collective wisdom. And this is your smallpox. right for your settlement. This is what we had with smallpox, syphilis, all the rest, the massive wave of disease that swept across this continent, before, pretty much before any settlers even caught sight of a functioning Aboriginal society, that society was already like, not, horrendously, because who did those diseases kill first? It was the old people. So when you were having your first contact moments, as you started moving into the interior, I know you only just got here, but I don’t have time to distinguish between settlers. I’m just saying you. And I’m gracefully to you. So um, you know, and you from the mother country, so you know, stuff. Yeah. So, you know, as your culture was having its first, you know, contact moments and recording as much as they could, or you were recording was, you know, the expression of an extremely dysfunctional disrupted culture already, because, you know, most of our elders had died. Yeah, you know, so where are all the grown ups? You’re asking now of your own culture. But at the time, as you were first meeting us, all our grown ups were dead. And we were working really hard to figure out, you know how to make sure we held on to all the law. And you know, where that was, and were madly shuffling things around as one group was being genocided, trying to make sure that that was stored with another group, all of that knowledge. So that when the population came back over here, you know, that that could be passed back. So a lot of us are doing that work now of bringing or a lot of that knowledge home and regenerating a lot of the songlines, and the ceremonial activities along those lines. You know, and I mean, that’s how I came to Perth was, you know, from working with monda got a story from Western New South Wales, and up over the border in the Queensland there, and that linking up across and working with those elders, and then travelling across with those elders to Perth, back in the day, you know, it’s all this stuff just unfolds. And things are kept today. And, you know, people who are embedded in the landscape, you know, I keep doing these things. You know, it’s like foot. So for example, you know, when I got there, and I met some of these elders, like in NWA, you know, one of them was like, saying to the eyes here, this is this valet we were waiting for before. And, you know, he takes me out to his shed, and he’s got, I’ve been hanging on to this for you for 30 years. And it was a big blue whale vertebra had washed up on the beach, and his old people had said, Just hang on to this. For a while, there’ll be somebody will come along, and you’ll, you’ll see white owl business that he’s carrying there. And this is this white owl spirit that enails brought up from, you know, the drowned country. And you’ve got to pass this on to him. You know what I mean? And then so then I got to take that back across, and I’ve got to pass that on to the right people. You know, so I’m being this kind of intermediary. So I’m passing that our business back to people over on the east coast. And, you know, making sure that’s going back into the right place, you know, so there’s all these actions that have to occur through massive cataclysms, you know, we’re by the law of the land can be maintained and kept, and eventually re established. Do you see that’s going on. So we’re all the grown ups there. It’s an emergence, you know, the system will throw up grown ups again. You know, at the moment, there’s a massive Cataclysm in your own sort of culture of everybody is being infantilized, and a lot of that’s because of the world leadership over the last few years. The most powerful and most famous man who ever lived has been running the world recently, and giving everybody the workshop on how to be pricks to each other, you know, in how to remain completely unaccountable. You know, you do something horrendous. And how you get out of that is like, doing nine or 10 other horrendous things immediately. Yes. And if anybody is, like, you know, isn’t completely exhausted. And we’ll try and hold you to account for each of those things at each point, as they try and hold you accountable for it. You just flip it back on them? No, I didn’t do that. You did that. You did that. And now you’re bullying me? I don’t feel safe. I don’t feel safe. You’re bullying me? Yeah. You know, that’s the workshop. And everybody left and right is doing that. They’re doing that in their personal relationships? I don’t know. That’s probably how you argue with your spouse. Now. Tell me that’s not a pattern that you’ve seen emerge in your personal relationships with whether you’ve got kids or spouse, your friends? Anybody? Yeah. If you say, oh, oh, when you do that, to me, that’s that’s really hurtful. And they’ll turn around and they will say to you, I didn’t do that you did that. And now you’re victimising me.

 

Bryn Edwards 

You’re victimising me. It’s a race to inhabit and

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

escalate and escalate and escalate until you give up and apologise. That’s your personal relationships now, with every single person in your life. It’s most of the people on the planet are having to have their personal relationships, even that coming through the art of the deal. And the Trump workshops that we’ve all had. And that’s where we are now. So where are the grown ups? The grown ups of Benjamin Button, man, horrendously. Yeah. And but there are people and there are entities in the landscape that are keeping all that wisdom for you’re keeping that knowledge for you. As soon as we get through that bloody Cataclysm, then that can start coming back that way as well. You know, it’s it’s the end of the world is never the end of the world. You know? You get one you get one of those every 10,000 years or so that’s just that’s just part of the natural cycles of the earth. Yeah. We’re gonna go with that brass.

 

 

Just gonna sit with it.

 

 

First give us it with it.

 

 

Why are you here? Why

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

did you come out?

 

 

How are you? Well,

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

I can tell you not one of those. You know, it’s just England is not England anymore. Not it’s not England anymore. Bloody national dishes. Chicken Tikka for fuck sake. No, no. Oh, no. Don’t lock all that curry. No, don’t let me fucking potatoes like, I’m coming. I’m coming out here. I’m gonna.

 

 

Yeah, and I

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

did like a million pounds and it’ll be convincing me every season. I’m gonna you ever seem to be a landlord and sit on my fat ass here whinge about things.

 

 

Did you ever see the Stanley sketch about people move into the colonies and the standard of life?

 

 

Yeah,

 

Bryn Edwards 

yeah. Well, I didn’t come here for the problems either. Learning to answer your question, and on one level, I could give you a whole lot of rational answers about why I’m not even gonna bother. And I came to Australia when I was 1819 years old. And something changed in me, and I went home. And one of the first things my mother said was, Did you enjoy it? And I said, Yeah, I’m gonna go back and live there. Yeah. And she was like, Oh, really? I passed it off. And, and then yeah, sets of circumstances came about for me to come here. But. And without sounding too ethereal. There’s always been a pool. And there’s a reason and I don’t quite get it. But there is a reason. And yeah, I’m yeah. That’s probably as good as I did you. Paul.

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

Did you pull when you get here? When you? Fall you did you hooked up? No. Oh, come with a skip check.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Now, okay. No, I came here. Yeah, no, it when we were talking earlier on about the forces coming together, of you know, almost like the land and how naturally things should be and then how we want them to be and how, and these these these these whirlwinds of thoughts and way of being collide together. Yeah, that’s what happened for me within about three or four years ago. Yeah. Everything like came with exploded, right? Yeah. And

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

yeah, you can’t go back. Yeah, yeah. You just don’t

 

Bryn Edwards 

have this gamer anymore to know. And, and, you know, we, you know, I’m sitting, everything exploded, and then all of a sudden sitting there in a little, little flat wondering. Wow, this is just like, and, and it’s interesting, because it’s almost like, I had to come here for it to happen, and it had to happen. So I had to come to W and this was the place that had to happen.

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

Your accents nearly gone. I’m trying to place it’s not Liverpool, it’s not less this year, glassed this year. Yeah, it just comes through every now and then a little bit. And I’m like,

 

Bryn Edwards 

Nah, what’s that? Alright. And then, and then yeah, and then since then, you know, it was always like, everything got burned. Everything got burned, right down to the ground, into ashes. And then, yeah, I had to rebuild. And that’s what I’ve done. And, and part of the, you know, amongst many things that I’ve done to rebuild. This has been part of it, talking to people talking

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

to Well, as you excavate down through those ash layers of your life that you built here. You find there are other layers beneath it. Yes. Other ashes? Yes.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Yeah. And it’s been interesting.

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

Bone chips and stuff in there.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Yeah. And I guess from from here, as everything is integrated. It’s been fascinating, particularly last year to go on a journey, a line of inquiry with the podcast that even taught me to places like and to I went to a boarding school, yeah, for 11 years. So separated from mom and dad at the age of eight. And, and so then I spoke to someone who’s To a expert in boarding school trauma now that’s a difficult conversation to have. Because how’d you port privilege and trauma in the same sentence? Yeah, not easy. Not everybody wants to hear that. Yeah. But it occurred and it occurred and, and

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

die What kind of boarding school like, you know, you go to like the forest kids 21st birthday cleaner boarding school or

 

 

Hajime

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

Well, I mean, how elite was your boarding school? Like,

 

Bryn Edwards 

I wasn’t, we’re not talking Eton’s here. And probably you

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

went in the in in the UK. Yeah, I was thinking about who like when Yeah. All right. No, like you came in 19. All right.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Yeah. All right. All right, because I moved here a movie. I was 36. Yeah, but you go back into that, and, and then all of a sudden, I could feel some of the trauma that sets that half of the British psyche. So, you know, so these different layers since coming here, that allowing whatever goes on here, the energy of this place to penetrate? And yeah. Yeah, different light ring layers of choice.

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, the, the British psyche is one of, you know, I mean, it’s just horrific waves of invasion and colonisation over and over and over again, as basically, you know, on unexamined trauma of that, that’s, you know, just sort of buried No, that was in the past.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Exactly, will bury me.

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

No wonder while we’re still doing it to like, you know, three of the four things that we call Britain. Just, you know, my goodness, you know, it’s, it’s, I mean, it’s just, I mean, you had morish invasions there. At one stage, you had like, you know, you had the Romans, but then even the Celts themselves, were invaders coming in there. And each subsequent wave you all first all Ireland, and, you know, they’ve moved it from a place that had cave bears and brick and direwolves shifted up from that to some fucking Bronze Age, horror, and then, you know, and further and further and further away, you know, each step was like this ratchet moving people away from the land. It’s just, it’s just an awful, awful tale of abuse. You know, what happened on that island? You know, you cut it from every kind of Viking that there was just waves and it’s pretty much you know, every few generations, people had to go, okay, all our men are dead. And we’re going to have to marry these rapists now. Oh, my God, again, okay. You know, but then weirdly, because of the nature of those invasions, and you know, killing all the men and raping all the women, there’s this kind of matrilineal line that’s come right through from your, you know, pictish and pre pictish. And be cut people like, no one even knows what the hell they were. Yeah, who made the fairy bolts when it’s still there, because it’s come through in this matrilineal line coming through because all the people that invaded immediately killed all the men and boys and and took over the women. So weirdly, you know, England kind of did this thing where it kept on no colonising the colonisers. Yeah, because within a few generations that sort of, you know, that women’s culture that matrilineal culture would reassert itself again into these bio regional cultures. The freakin for some reason on this tiny island is like, I mean, how many different accents on it?

 

Bryn Edwards 

Oh, ridiculous.

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

So the end the land still asserts that patent over your speech in these bio regions, yes. To the point where it keeps expressing itself even though you’re forced all to speak this ridiculous trade Korea with a bit of Norman a bit of sex and a bit of angle and a bit of frickin jute and Dane and frickin everything else coming through. You know, even indo European, you know, that was an invasion. Again, everything at each time, the land keeps reasserting its spirit. You know, I think it has something to do with the really powerful sacred sites and underground water, things that you’ve got there. And the people I mean, you still go to the fucking chemist. And what do you get that you get your walking trails mat pay? Yeah. You know, you get your walking trails map wherever you are in England. And you walk ancient frickin paths. Yeah, you know, every person no matter we, if you move to another village where they have a different act as accent or whatever, or if you’re visiting or going through, you bastards always end up walking those paths. And the farmers can’t keep you out, they’ve got to provide access through their fields for you to continue walking these ancients. All right, these ley lines, you know, these trade routes all over your. So it’s weird. England, the land keeps asserting its spirit, no matter who invades it no matter what kind of economic system gets mapped over the top. And that’s going to give you some hope.

 

 

Yes,

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

is when this global economic system does finally collapse? Yeah. It’s, um, that will still be there for you. And that will still be there for whoever’s here, too. And it’s gonna really help when we start the 1000 year clean up together. Yeah, yeah.

 

Bryn Edwards 

We are we starting it or

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

not. Now, there’s more messes to be made yet?

 

Bryn Edwards 

more messy. It’ll have to start

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

soon, though, because, yeah. People were worried recently that, that the ice melt, you know, at the polls, would expose the banded basis, scientific and military, because those bases were run by small nuclear reactors. And there are massive big, you know, open air ponds of radioactive coolant. And they just abandoned those and let the snow cover it over. And they’re really, really worried about the ice melt, know, with climate change, exposing those and basically, you know, rendering entire buddy hemispheres. Radioactive. Yeah. It’s completely destroying ecosystems. And, you know, once you get into those currents, they go everywhere. Yeah, you know, and there’s Coriolis effect that might protect one hemisphere from the other, temporarily, but eventually that bleeds across. Yeah. So they were worried that that was gonna happen any day now. But recently, they’ve said, No, we don’t have to worry about that anymore. Because it will be at least it’ll be a century. We’ve got 100 years until that happens. Right. And there are about 50 other things that are, you know, complete existential threats, that won’t happen for another 100 years. Right. And then there are about 500. Other things that are complete existential threats that could drop any day. Yeah. And we’re not slowing down, nor we’re adding to that we’re going and we’re going to just chuck CRISPR into the mix now. I mean, because we can. So yeah, and this and that. And oh, my goodness. Yeah. So we haven’t started the cleanup yet. Right. You know, the baby is still shitting on the floor. And yeah, and we haven’t started cleaning it up yet.

 

Bryn Edwards 

What? use the word hope, a minute ago, what does hope,

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

like, hope usually is not something I’m interested in. I think it’s something that people use to avoid accountability. Yeah, I think it’s something that people use to sort of wallpaper over the externalities that they produce. Yeah. Because every every action that you take, so you might campaign for something, you know, a solution, a particular solution, but that solution is producing externalities. So you’re improving conditions in one place, or for one group of people. But all you’re doing is outsourcing that entropy to somewhere else that damaged somewhere else, if you’re not aware of the externalities you’re producing, I mean, you need to have hope to cover that over. Yes. And this feeling that the good that you’re doing in the world is improving the world, and not just shifting the shitty stuff to somewhere else. You know, so that’s what hope is for hope is also there to keep people compliant and to keep people calm. When they’re in absolutely intolerable conditions. It’s a this you know, this lack of agency, it’s a it’s a longing for a set of future conditions over which you have no control. That’s what hope is, to me, hope is a is a mechanism that liberalism is a self organising system throws up to keep us in line. Right? Yeah.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Okay. So a different question then is what what can we do?

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

What can you do, you can foster the conditions for emergence. Your frontal lobe is this is the most inefficient, clunky, ineffective mechanism on the planet for creating solutions to complex problems. You know, you need to do these things collectively, you need to listen to everybody. You need to bring people together and share all the stories and find a narrative path through. We just need to support each other. And we need to make sure that we’re behaving as interconnected, interrelated groups of people. And who, and we’ve got to reject this idea of some people having solutions, or an ideology being better than another ideology. Yeah, because otherwise, we waste all of our time struggling over those things. And basically, all of our energy that needs to be funnelled into actually the 1000 year cleanup, instead, that’s just getting burned up as heat in our struggles against each other. You know, so we got to, you know, just speak the way you speak. You don’t have to insist that other people speak the same way, you just speak that way, live that way, and go and interact and listen to as many people as possible in and allow every interaction to change you. Yes. You know, give freely, try not to accumulate anything, keep as much as possible, have every unit of value Energy Information, everything else, exchanging hands at least 10 times, you know, you got to have velocity, you know, within a system. And if you, if you make that demotic biotic, you know, our natural system of interaction, if you increase that, then you’re allowing for emergence to happen. For a larger mind, you know, basically, liberalism is this big Godzilla, you know, but altogether, it’s kind of emerged, you know, organically under its own steam, and it’s, it’s sort of gay, the singularities happened, you know, it is a massive complex self organising entity. And we need to start behaving, you know, as human beings in our own system embedded in a landscape. Just doing that, then, you know, the big, the beast that might actually fight Godzilla, for us will emerge from that. But if you are operating under any illusion that you can do community organising, or, you know, online activism or get some memes together, or get a following will make the next platform we’ll make the next organisation that’s gonna save the frickin world. You know, that’s, that’s some power rangers shit that just isn’t gonna work

 

Bryn Edwards 

arranges? What’s the last couple of questions? And that’s, like, more human question. Was it like, men, Tyson, young reporter who see so deeply into the world?

 

 

Ah,

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

I don’t think I see deeply at all. I think I’m spread very thin, right across the entire surface. My relationships are not what they should be. Yeah, they’re not what they were. Yeah. You know, but I mean, I just, I just go with it. I, I assume that there are entities that are far smarter than I am, that are directed me, you know, towards these things. And so I just follow the signs. You know, I know how to read country. And, you know, that’s a transferable skill set. And so I read all of these systems in the same way. And I just let myself go where I’m directed. You know, so I might not be feeling it with, you know, some big bloody podcast with 8 million viewers, or something that wants to talk to me, and I’m just not feeling it. I’m not seeing any sign to go on there. And I’ll say not, but then I’ll do some other pissy little podcast that some expats doing out of his living room. Because I’ll feel Yeah, I get that message that well, this is the one I’m supposed to be doing. You know, so I just go where I’m kind of

 

 

blown.

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

Although that seems a bit. I don’t know. I know, that sounds a bit random. It’s not it’s not as random as that. Yeah, basically, I just follow the signs and I do what I’m supposed to do. It’s seldom in my best interest. But, you know, I kind of know I know now after, you know, nearly five decades, that every time I try to plan a path through every time I have a fucking ambition or a goal, or a mission, or I’m going to do this that will be like, you know, that I’m going to get swallowed by the fish and sped up somewhere else. So I just, you know, let the current take me where it’s supposed to take me and I don’t fight that anymore. Yeah, yeah. And it’s seldom what I want to do. And but what I want to do is irrelevant. Yeah. And and I guess you know, you’re never happier than when you’re really allowing these things to take away. They’re supposed to take you and always ends up somewhere. That’s right. In the end you go are that’s what all that was for. Yeah. Oh, that abuse was okay. Yeah, that was a whole heap of CO evolutionary pressures that would lead me to this train of thought, Okay, awesome. Fuck is that really hurts, though, I gotta get some ointment for that. It’s very difficult. I think people like catastrophize trauma. I mean, there’s a lot of impact on everybody’s life. And, and whether you feel trauma or not from that, or experienced trauma and and keep going around around and under the water with it, cycling back through it. And you know, is, that’s up to you. I find that that’s really unhelpful, that doesn’t allow you to learn what you’re supposed to learn and be put where you’re supposed to be put, and you just kind of accept that. It’s like, Ah, okay, so my jaw is now going to click for the rest of my life. Okay, that’s fine. That’s good. And then you stop having nightmares about it. You know, you just, you know, put on the ointment and keep going. And make sure you extract the learning. Find you allow that to put you on the path where you’re supposed to be. And then it’s all pretty good. There’s no trauma there. Yes, just all life and knowledge in all the rest. But like I said, it’s my Doom to be spread sort of thin, sort of so far. You know, I’ve been granted a few, you know, periods where I’ve been able to be in a place and go deep. But I’ve never been allowed to stay there. For too long. I am hoping that the last little part of my life that I’ll get 10 years just to be somewhere and be deep there without having to be moved on. Yeah, but that’s everybody’s learnings. You know. I’m not making plans for that. I’m just, you know, there’s something quietly that I would like one day. Yeah, please, spirit. Yeah, listening. But that’s all right. Maybe like, another time around? Yeah. Maybe you’ll get born through after the cleanup and get to enjoy a bit of that.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Yes, yeah. Yes, maybe that’s what we’re longing for. So, last question, I ask all my guests. It’s a hypothetical one, but it’s always good fun. And if I could just slow everyone down for 10 minutes. And Tyson could just stick a question into the collective consciousness that everybody thinks about or reflects on for five or 10 minutes. What would that be?

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

I just said first protocol. them all fellas, that was the first question they ask you, where you going? Where you go? Is everything in that it’s like, what is your purpose here? Or what’s your trajectory? Wherever you come from? Where are you going to? What is it? What is your purpose here? Yeah, in this place? And you know, with this implied kind of, oh, that’s gonna have to be regulated. Yeah, it’s that first. Anywhere you go and country or you come and community, you know, you meet them all follow us. That’s, that’s always in whatever language, you know, that’s, it’s where you’re going. Where you go. Weirdly, that’s often translated. That language phrase is often translated into English. As welcome. So in Melbourne, you know, and in Victoria, it’s a woman, Jacob. Yeah. You know, and that’s like, that’s called welcome. You know, for setlists. But what it really means is, where are you going? What are you doing he? Papers, Please? Yeah,

 

 

yeah. Who are you?

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

Yep. button, okay. Like, up north, it’s all about people. First thing like Hello, how are you? We’re okay. Are you going? Really good? Yep. On this purpose, too, that means like, place purpose, all the all that kind of thing. So you might answer in play. So we’re not Okay. You got me in play aka like, going for mud crabs? Yeah. That’s my purpose. Yeah. And then it’s like, well, you might bring a couple of those crabs back. And then you have to,

 

Bryn Edwards 

then you’re obliged. Yeah. Super fast. I’ve really, really enjoyed talking to you this morning. Yeah,

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

same way.

 

 

Yeah. We’ve been lots of different places.

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

Yeah. Lots of different places.

 

 

Yeah. I feel.

 

Bryn Edwards 

I felt like I’ve travelled more deeply in Western Australia by talking to someone in Victoria. Strangely, that.

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

Isn’t that weird. But that’s how it goes.

 

 

Indeed. And yeah, if anybody wants to know more about us, I’d suggest you go and read his book, which seems to be

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

just just borrow it from somebody or from a library or something. There’s plenty of copies out there already. Just like,

 

 

yeah,

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

I want I’m trying to encourage people not to buy them anymore because it’s um, you know, it’s one of those things when you get to a certain number of units sold that it kind of ruins your life a fair bit, you get positioned in this marketplace, in ways that are not conducive to having good relations in the world. Yeah. As much as possible this day. Yeah.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Okay. Don’t go and buy his book.

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

Guys, borrow from the library, or even just talk to someone about it. Oh,

 

Bryn Edwards 

yeah, whatever.

 

Tyson Yunkaporta 

I read it. I’ll tell you that this stuff, how they read it. Alright, man,

 

Bryn Edwards 

thank you very much.

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