#195: Reconciling your Impact on Environment – Shona Hunter, WA Forest Alliance

We are all aware of the negative impacts that are happening to our surrounding environment and nature.

But how do we begin to acknowledge that within ourselves?

How do we begin to navigate our emotions to avoid overwhelm, so that we can get to a place where we can actually do something about it?

And just what can we do?

This is exactly what I explored with Shona Hunter, Community Organiser for the WA Forest Alliance.

Shona brings a wealth of experience of working in this area to open up a space to journey through this tricky journey from a real personal point of view.

Read Full Transcript

Bryn Edwards 

I would like to think on one level or another, that we’re all become aware of the negative impacts that are happening on our surrounding environment and nature. But how do we begin to acknowledge that within ourselves? How do we begin to navigate our emotions to avoid overwhelm, so that we can get to a place where we can actually do something about it? This is exactly what I explored with Shona Hunter, who’s the community organiser at the WA Forest Alliance. Shona brings a wealth of experience of working in this area, and the hours that she’s given to this cause for us to go through this tricky journey, from a real personal point of view, so that we can begin to get to a place, like I said, where we can start to process our own emotions, and consider and open up to the potential actions that we can take to help in these areas. So enjoy Shona.

 

Shona Hunter 

I just want to start by acknowledging that we’re on we’re jumping on our country, and that sovereignty was never seated. And that this always wasn’t always will be Aboriginal land. And that the Aboriginal people of Australia were the first activists in Australia fighting for their, for their country and their children and their freedom. And that that fight exists today. And the activists of the past and the current activists of the present and the ones that are emerging, I’d like to just acknowledge those as well.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Hello, and welcome back to WA Real, after that. Wonderful. Welcome to Country. I’d like to welcome Shona Hunter to the show. Shona welcome.

 

 

Thanks.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Thank you very much for having me.

 

Shona Hunter 

Well, it’s a pleasure. Actually. I’m looking forward to this. Yeah,

 

 

good. Yeah.

 

Bryn Edwards 

So your community organiser for the Wi Fi Alliance, which is an umbrella organisation that was to help provide support to other small groups initiatives? Who centre around the forest concerns?

 

Shona Hunter 

Yeah, I think the lessons not so much support, but more that we all have the common interest of protecting the Southwest forests and forests in the southwest. And that there’s the recognition that there’s lots of individuals and community groups throughout the Southwest that have been working for this aim for protection for, you know, like, nearly 40 years now, and longer for some other people. And so we work together in a kind of a in a crossroads kind of way where we help each other out. And yeah, we have we share the same aims. Yeah. So we amplify each other’s voices. And yes, yeah, it’s, yeah, it’s movement building stuff.

 

Bryn Edwards 

So So I first came across this issue. When I went to see the film cloudforest.

 

Shona Hunter 

Powerful film,

 

Bryn Edwards 

yeah. made things very, very clear. straight to the point. Yeah.

 

Shona Hunter 

It’s impacted a lot of people. Yes, yeah.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Yes. And it’s raised bigger questions, which are wanted to dive in to today with you. But I guess, you know, today is not about recounting the film, I would highly recommend people go and see that. But at the top level, for somebody who’s not seen it, can you give us like the summary of the major points?

 

 

So we can Yeah,

 

Shona Hunter 

yeah, so the film covers of the major threats to the southwest forests, and there are many and varied, and it really highlights that the forests are under assault from many different angles, all throughout the Southwest. It’s not just logging that, that threatens the farm. And also that the mining of bauxite, there’s the mining of bauxite, there’s, there’s dye back, and there’s also the effects of climate change. And that’s having a huge effect on a drought affecting the forests in the southwest. And it’s reducing the amount of rainfall available for, you know, trees that are used to having, you know, a much higher rainfall. And so they’re, they’re not growing as tall or, and that, yeah, they’re drought affected. Yes, yeah. So it also kind of does a really beautiful way of demonstrating how the different parts of the movement to protect the native forests, and then the people involved and the different ways that we’ve worked really hard as a community to, you know, bring this issue to public, to public awareness and also to the awareness of, you know, decision makers. And it also demonstrates all the beauty and the magnificence and the incredible variety of values that forests have, intrinsically for themselves, but just because they exist as as far as but also for the role that they play in, you know, sustaining life on Earth. Yes, life of people. Yeah,

 

Bryn Edwards 

I think is as well as the other This message that comes through in the film, the drone footage across the forest is just stunning. Yeah. And I was also struck by the the diversity of people that the film covers who moved to action on this issue. Whether it’s the the highly professional doctor couple that might have bought the land

 

 

to do the Agra forest.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Yeah, to the forcing through to the grannies. Yeah, wish was just enough to bring a tear to your

 

Shona Hunter 

eye. Yeah. Taking direct action in the forest. Yeah,

 

Bryn Edwards 

the ground is out there with their knitting in the middle of the night, it was just stunning to see people doing the chaining themselves to things and all sorts of things. It wasn’t just one sort of

 

 

demographic demographic.

 

Bryn Edwards 

It wasn’t just one demographic of people. It was a variety of people. All moved by this.

 

 

Yeah, one issue.

 

Shona Hunter 

And we’ve worked really hard to, to demonstrate or we didn’t even need to work hard. It’s it’s in its nature, this movement isn’t a political movement. There are so many people across so many demographics that understand that it’s absolutely ludicrous to keep cutting down native forests, there’s actually no need for it. And the film also does a really good job of demonstrating how it’s been happening at a financial loss and, you know, tax

 

 

funding this. That was the that was the

 

Bryn Edwards 

so I come from a business consulting background. And that’s the bit that I just found. Shocking, yeah. In the fact that there’s this industry, which is supported by the W a government

 

 

and the W a tax, therefore the W a taxpayer?

 

Bryn Edwards 

Yes. And it’s running at a loss. So

 

Shona Hunter 

and the forests belong to us in the first Yeah.

 

Bryn Edwards 

So it’s like net, net net net loss all across the board. Yeah, we’re losing the nature.

 

Shona Hunter 

We’re losing money, right. And there’s so much more economic value in keeping them standing. Yes, you know, because for tourism, and beekeeping and recreation, and all the other, you know, values, social values that forests play, a role in our economy for that is that they’re worth far more standing financially, and also for the other benefits as well. And, and the film also does a really good job of demonstrating how its forests are really needed to help mitigate climate change. They’re actually, you know, the the byline of the film is can we save the forest in time for them to save us? Because we need that carbon drawdown, it’s absolutely essential to keep every single forest intact across the whole globe if we

 

 

are going to fight just hours. Yeah. All this is on us. Yeah. Yeah.

 

Bryn Edwards 

I think particularly when you saw the sort of map of what was there and what is in place now?

 

 

Oh, yeah. That’s Gary Stark.

 

Shona Hunter 

Yeah. And also what’s left available for logging? Yes, yeah.

 

 

Yes. So

 

Shona Hunter 

more than half more than half of what’s left?

 

Bryn Edwards 

Yes, is available for logging. So I guess what I wanted to ask was, because the, you know, the issue around our forest is clear and present. And yet, there are so many other issues of the same ilk. You know, whether mental issues, environmental issues, climate related issues.

 

Shona Hunter 

biodiversity loss. Yeah.

 

Bryn Edwards 

But then also just how we’re treating fellow men. There’s all these

 

Shona Hunter 

social justice issues.

 

 

Yeah, social

 

Bryn Edwards 

justice is all of them. How? How do you go about placing your issue in the marketplace have other issues that are all screaming for attention? How have you guys gone about actually capturing the attention of everyday folk towards this, because this is what I find. You know, I could I could go and watch cry of, you know, cry the Thoris. And then I could go home and put Netflix on and watch see Spira. See? And then I could go and watch something out. And all of a sudden, it’s like,

 

 

by my by my bank, quite overwhelming. It’s overloaded. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So

 

Shona Hunter 

I guess that sends a lot of people into apathy, because they’re just, yeah,

 

Bryn Edwards 

we’ll probably come into that in a minute was reaction, but I guess, how do you actually even go about placing this issue in the marketplace of issues? If that’s,

 

Shona Hunter 

I think we haven’t deliberately done that. I don’t think we’ve needed to, because there has been such an affinity like such a natural drawing for West Australians to really support their forests or the forests. And I think that it’s part of, you know, who we are as Westerners raelians that Southwest native forests make up childhood memories, they make up so much about holiday time they make up so much of what we value about where we live. That it’s, it’s it’s a natural thing for people to want to save them. So we haven’t had to compete in the marketplace of issues, so to speak. And we’ve, we’ve never seen it like that. And we’ve never deliberately tried to be competitive. Yes, it’s just naturally occurred that the movement has drawn 1000s upon 1000s of people. And I think what makes people stay is that there’s a few things.

 

 

Yes, be

 

Bryn Edwards 

aware. But then stay.

 

Shona Hunter 

Yeah, yeah. So there’s a lot of people that are drawn and and can really understand the issue and a totally onside with the movement. But then the, the reason why the movement is, is so mobilised, and so active, I think it comes from, you know, the 40 years of legacy that this was, you know, the Western Australia’s environmental movement of movements was founded upon the forest movements. Yeah, you know, and some of the biggest wins that we’ve had in environmental, you know, spaces has been for forests. Yeah. Historically, in, in Western Australia. So we have this legacy of many, many campaigners, and activists and individuals, and decision makers that have come before us who’ve, who’ve really worked really worked really hard and made. Yeah, really set, set the whole movement up. And Scott, yeah, it’s got time behind, it’s got history behind this momentum. Yeah. And it’s also that history is really founded in some beautiful roots of non violence, and deep respect for working with people and decision makers. And this, we’ve got a great rapport with decision makers, you know, we we work together with them when we’re not working against the workers, we’re trying to find solutions through developing the forest for life Transition Plan, which gives the gives the workers you know, the the way out of a, you know, a dying industry. And the government’s not doing that. But we’ve developed a plan, which means that these people are not left behind and communities are not left behind. Yes. So we’re inclusive, like we saw, I’m from England,

 

Bryn Edwards 

originally. So like we saw with the coal industry where the coal mine shuts down,

 

Shona Hunter 

and then where they go, I’ve got no money and, you know, livelihoods in an older economy. Yeah, exactly. And the regional economies that really rely on that, you know, local expenditure of those workers also suffers, yes. And so we’ve, you know, we’ve developed a transition plan, which is really, you know, the state government’s job to do that. But you know, we’ve self funded that the, you know, the research into that plan. So, this is all about making sure that we have a solution, but also including everybody’s needs, and having this way of working, where we there’s mutual respect. And yeah, we’ve we’ve got that we’ve got that behind us. And that’s, you know, decades of Yeah, really, really strong relationships. And then I think the next thing that I’d like to say about why people are drawn and stay in the movement is that there’s a couple of things next is that we have an action plan, we give people things that are very specific, very measurable, and very achievable. And that feeling of when you see the film, and you see the destruction, and you start edging into that overwhelm, and apathy, the panacea for that is action. And you need to be able to take action that you see is actually going to make a difference in order for you to feel like you have some control and power over the issue. Yes. And that’s what that’s as a as an individual, we want to be empowered to do something about we can do something, it’s possible, then we can make change. And that brings me to the next thing is that it’s absolutely possible. It’s absolutely achievable. It’s not something that’s so far out of reach, like, you know, ending, you know, the gas industry in Western Australia, like that’s a massive transition and a massive ask, but transitioning, you know, 350 jobs. And, you know, a loss making industry is a really easy win, yes, with massive global benefits. It doesn’t just benefit the local wildlife and the local people and the local forests and our rainfall. It also has global benefits. And I think that that’s what’s so attractive about is that in our backyard, we’ve got this low hanging climate, you know, climate action fruit, yes. So we can actually pick and eat and do do

 

 

right now and feel good, like we got a sense of momentum. Yeah.

 

Shona Hunter 

And because we’ve had buy in with decision makers, like we make broke, we’ve making progress because it’s just a no brainer,

 

Bryn Edwards 

no contact. In a minute, and

 

 

is there

 

Bryn Edwards 

almost like a path that you see when somebody encounters this, for the first time was like a personal journey that they might go through? Because I’ve had a previous guest quite a few years ago. Who, who was young in analyst week, we talked about dealing with the trauma of being aware of our impact on on the environment, and how that people open up for a moment and then go too much. And that’s me, and I’m doing all of it and then snap, and then I’m gonna get out of this. Yeah, because it’s all just too murky in too much for me to sit with. So is there sort of a pattern that you see with, with all paths that you see people go through when they first interact with this? And as they, you know, start to go further into this issue?

 

Shona Hunter 

That’s a really good question. And I think that the, the people begin the, the journey in this movement in lots of different ways. Yeah. Because it’s such a dynamic. And yeah, what’s the word dynamic and varied campaign? Like there’s so many, there’s so many different ways

 

 

you can get involved? So you’re active things that trigger you in right start with

 

Shona Hunter 

so and also we, as a community organiser, I’ve been really pushing this idea of being, you know, radically self responsible and empowered to do what you can do in your own area of influence. Yes. So rather than trying to worry about the solution and fixing the problem, just look at what’s around you, and how you can make influence in the area?

 

Bryn Edwards 

Because that’s an easy route to bypass out, isn’t it? Oh, the problem is so enormous. Yeah, there’s no way I can do anything I

 

Shona Hunter 

say check. Yeah, yeah. So I’d have these conversations around, like what’s possible, given your own lifestyle, given your own capacity, given your own availability, and given your area of influence and what you do on a day to day basis? what’s possible for you, and sometimes it’s a conversation, and that’s powerful. You talk to the right person, and you can really make a difference. Yeah. And sometimes it’s writing a letter. And sometimes it’s, you know, you know, putting on a film screening at the at your kids school. Yeah. Or sometimes it’s donating money. Because, you know, you trust in this grassroots organisation that’s been around for 30 years. And you maybe want to see it. caterer is Tom porpoise. Exactly. And that’s, yeah, yeah.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Because I think, I think the reason why I ask is because I think it’s important because, because there’s so many issues out there, in that it can be an overwhelm, and then it’s easy to then all of a sudden become aware of an environmental issue, particularly one that’s right on your doorstep is you know, it’s it’s one thing talking about a floating island, Island plastic in the Pacific, which is on the other side of the world tours, right?

 

Shona Hunter 

It’s not really relatable, right?

 

Bryn Edwards 

Yeah, you know, and that’s where you get this sort of, well, it should be, right.

 

 

It should Don’t get me wrong. I mean, I can relate, but, but

 

Bryn Edwards 

you know, but then we’ve got to say this really close, I’m really close to home, forest, and southwest, and then you get that sort of Dawn of awakening of light, you know, I and everyone else to trading really heavily on the land, and we’re making an impact directly, indirectly, this is going on. And then you know, you can be concerned, confused, angry, outraged, all of these emotions can be released, and then you don’t know what to do with it. And then if, you know, somebody appears to know a whole lot more about this and you don’t and so it’s like, why that and then you can be embarrassed. It’s like all these all these little jerk like it’s like that. I’m interested in like the personal journey to have a discussion around that because it if we can normalise an acceptance to say, look, I didn’t know about this. And that’s okay. Not like you didn’t know about the forest. Or deer. You know what I mean? It’s like, you didn’t know. Where have you been?

 

 

Where have you been? Yeah, you

 

Bryn Edwards 

just been living in your own little world. Yeah, okay. Shame is not going to help No, right here. Shame is only gonna throw people further, further away. So as long as like in it heel height, this accepting cushion of light. You didn’t know. Okay, all right, come in. I was what you know, tell us what you do. And it’s okay that you don’t know. But it’s great that you do now. Yeah. And we recognise you don’t know all of it. Yeah. And maybe you don’t need to go all the way down the rabbit hole with it, maybe just the top of it is fine.

 

Shona Hunter 

Yeah, for now. And whatever you can possibly do, like, whatever is possible for you. That’s definitely the key, and also, the principles of non violence. That, you know, the West Australian forest Alliance was kind of founded on and the community campaigners that have been doing direct action for forest protection for, you know, decades. those principles apply, like, subtly and sort of subconsciously in all the work that we do. So the you know, the idea of shame is, is a is a violent, is a violent communication idea. And the idea of, you know, belittling or disempowering somebody or Yeah, it’s, it’s it that the principles of non violence work through into the ways that we take action and the way that we, you know, that West Australian forest Alliance is a community like, it’s, I like to call it like a community. That’s how I refer to it, when I’m talking with all the people that are involved. We really like there’s a lot of support that goes on in the affinity we have when we work together is, is quite personal, you know, people come into my home and drink cups of tea and do handstands every Monday while we pack team kids and count t shirts and data entry. Like we and we listen to each other on a personal level. And also about we have that make that space for the grief around climate grief and, you know, biodiversity loss. And we talked about these things, and we accept that this is part of being in the movement is that, you know, there is going to be mental emotional health breakdown in doing this work. And it’s Yes, it’s absolutely, absolutely the way that it has been and will continue to be and will probably get worse. Yeah. So we create a space for holding that just by our nature and the people that we work with. Understand, understand that compassion and understand that that’s what’s needed. Yeah.

 

 

Yeah.

 

 

Grief is the word is grief is the words.

 

Bryn Edwards 

You look upon the destruction.

 

Shona Hunter 

Yeah. It’s absolutely devastating.

 

Bryn Edwards 

It’s devastating. And it is loss.

 

Shona Hunter 

Yeah. It’s loss,

 

 

grief.

 

Shona Hunter 

And the grief is, you know, doubly triply, whatever, compounded because it’s not just in this moment loss, it’s a loss for future generations. And that loss for future generations is going to be, you know, exponential compared to the current loss that we’re experiencing. And that grief is, you know, even deeper for those of us who are parents, you know, come Yeah, in the future, the future. Yeah, for the people not yet born. That’s very big for a lot of people to hold. And we, we understand that, as you know, activists and climate activists, it’s part of who we are. And for me personally, it’s part of my driving force. Like, I get grief that I feel, and you know, less less rage. Now. I used to get really like, oh, my goodness, just like,

 

 

come to rage in a minute. But

 

Shona Hunter 

now it’s more like underneath that rage. As always, for me grief personally, yes. And that grief, if I can channel that into taking action, then I feel so empowered. I said it before, you know, I feel so like, there’s something that I can do. And I can see I can see a way forward, given my own personal circumstances from what I can achieve. Yeah. And together as a community, like when we all do our little bits, we end up with this movement. That’s so powerful. Yeah, you know, because you need the people who write the letters, you need the people who are going to go and deliver the lead leaflets, you need the people who are going to cook the meal for the premiere of the film, you need the people who are going to collect raffle prizes and donations, you need the businesses who put the stuff in the cafes you need. You know, the beekeepers talking about this you need everyone is needed. It doesn’t matter how you show up. That’s my favourite thing to say. Everyone is needed. Doesn’t matter how you show up. Yeah.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Yeah. And I think to another point you just mentioned before, when you were talking about grief, the recognition that whoever put this, you almost are on a hiding to nothing. Or you always are on a journey to a bit of an emotional breakdown at some point. Because unless we get to such a radical, systematic change and we’ll probably Come into this when I asked you the question about how you influence decision makers in a minute, but I think we have to have the recognition that currently, we have these commercial entities which are born out of a period of enlightenment and rationalisation where it’s winners and losers. And the game is set up with a set of rules based on extractive economies. And until such time, as we figure out how to replace all of that, we continue to have this thought perspective or this action perspective, that’s just gained the ridiculous momentum. That’s some may say it’s out of control. That will continue to happen. And it’s, it’s not, it’s not necessarily the people in it, it’s the whole structure of the power that continues to go. And until such time as that’s put to one side, here, you you are going to head towards a bit of a probably an emotional breakdown more than a mental breakdown. Is that, is that how you’d say

 

Shona Hunter 

both that intrinsic? And you see it in the young children? Yes, in the, in the, you know, the students and who are realising what the future holds for them. And there’s an emotional breakdown, and there’s a mental illness attached to that. And, yeah, yeah, that there is a trend, and there will be a need for, you know, counsellors and psychologists who are specially trained in dealing with climate grief. Yes. And I would like to say that, that it’s, it’s important to have that grief. And it’s important to feel that grief and with that grief and be uncomfortable in that. And there’s a lot like these my personal opinions, you know, there’s a lot of ignoring the stuff that doesn’t feel right and pushing it away, and just getting on with things and not feeling it not being with it not sitting with it.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Well, regular, regular listeners of the show now probably know exactly what I’m going to say next, which is I have an emerging hypothesis, because it’s turned up in like the last several interviews, but it’s coming up again, is that that grief is an appropriate response to, to what’s going on in the world, absolutely. Coming to this place where much of our mental and emotional health issues are not a problem with the individual individuals fine. They’re an appropriate response to a world that’s not going in a healthy, productive.

 

Shona Hunter 

And if you’re not having that responses, grief right now, then you’re not paying more

 

Bryn Edwards 

concern.

 

Shona Hunter 

That’s more of a concern. You’re not paying attention, you’re not living in what is actually the reality right now. Yeah. And that’s concerning is that I think that it’s to be celebrated. If you’re able to connect if you’re able to see what’s happening, and connect with the grief, because you’re, you know, you’re far more along that the journey to doing something about it and making change and being part of the change. If you can first do that. If you can first see what’s happening and then and then feel the grief, and use that grief, like it’s a it’s an energy for change. Yes, a powerful tool is there for a reason, grief exists in us to motivate us to do something, you know, especially that feeling of injustice that comes with great, yes, that’s the real motivator for me, that climate justice Being that this is not fair on people that have done nothing, absolutely nothing to towards creating this problem. Yes. And that sense of justice for me is like a real driving force. Yeah.

 

Bryn Edwards 

That you mentioned rage earlier on. How have you come to live with that? Because Because as you disappear into the, it was like the the swamp of emotions, you know, acknowledging is the way out, but part of that navigation, particularly if you’re going into the depressive parts is anger is a is an appropriate transitional emotion at times. Yeah. How did you deal with rage?

 

Shona Hunter 

I, I dealt with rage by usually it was a triggered response in an interaction that I’m having with somebody. Yeah. A lot of the time, not necessarily at all in reaction to not necessarily somebody that I knew or an interaction that I’m having personally but just like this, how dare you, you know, that feeling of like, how dare you make those decisions on behalf of all of us, you know, that kind of rage. And that for me, there’s a few steps in that process in my mind is first Mostly that compassion is a big part of it for me. And understanding that if I take responsibility for what I can do in my own life, yeah, then that somehow diffuses the rage because it puts the power back in my own hands. Yes. And I, I don’t have that. I don’t have that rage anymore for that person, because I’m focused on what I can do in your day, in my own area of influence. And that really, really helps. But that compassion also, especially on a campaigning one to one level, you know, if you’re at a stall, and somebody comes up to you and says, Oh, well, you know, like somebody shit, like one of our amazing volunteers shared with me yesterday, somebody said to him in passing at a store, oh, well, you know, that’s just the way it is. Isn’t that mate? Too bad, too sad kind of attitude. And it’s just, you know, firstly, my response to that was like, that guy’s not part of our movement, and we don’t need him. We need the people that get it. Yeah. And want to work with us. Yes. And you know what? It’s gone. For me campaigning has gone way past that point of trying to convert people, if you’re not already converted, you’re getting left behind, and we’re going to move on without you, we don’t actually need everyone to be on site to make mass change, or to create 10%, right, even less than that. So it’s a really small amount, you don’t need that many people to, you know, make a resolution, really not so. And those people, if you if I if I personally put my energy into trying to change their mind, I am going to get stuck in that negative feedback loop. And I’m going to get stuck in my own emotions. And it’s going to be super triggering. For me. That’s my personal experience. I’d rather just say nothing, right? I’d rather just say Have a lovely day. Maybe just check us out on the website. Yeah. You know, yeah. Thanks for stopping by.

 

Bryn Edwards 

When you arrive at the away,

 

Shona Hunter 

yeah, we’ll be still let us know if you want to get involved later. I don’t engage in trying to convert people any more personally. I’d rather put my energy into people who are like, yes, I’m on board. What’s next? Let’s go. Yes, that’s where the power, that’s where the change lies. And it’s not about just doing what’s positive. It’s about go where the energy is flowing. Like where it’s where it is. Just use that momentum. Work with that. Yeah,

 

Bryn Edwards 

I suppose another area of another area of trauma, grief rage in this is that without getting all caught up in on it, is that as you look at what is happening to the trees, you your projection out onto what is happening to the trees in the forest, is a direct mirror of what’s happening to us as we wake up every day and get shepherded off to work and get extracted.

 

 

Yeah.

 

Shona Hunter 

And when you say, like, I don’t know, if you’ve ever been in a clearfil, coop or seen machinery operating? No. But when you’re on the ground, and you can hear it and you can feel it in your bones and in your heart. It’s absolutely devastating. Yes. And that. For me, it’s less about the reflection. It’s more like, way we feel this like it’s it’s a it’s a felt thing, between all beings on this planet, like in hertz. Yes. Yeah. And it doesn’t matter whether you’re a human or an animal or a plant or whatever. Like it’s all part of that same Yes. Feeling entity? Yeah,

 

 

I think.

 

 

Yeah, I guess the point was different to the point you’re trying to make. Yeah,

 

Bryn Edwards 

it does hurt. And there will be that base level. I think it probably hurts that bit more. Because you watch what’s happening. It’s, it’s as hard to do as humans that are doing that to the forest. But it’s us humans that are doing it to ourselves as well.

 

Shona Hunter 

We’re stuck in some of us.

 

 

Yeah. Yeah. to about two. So

 

Shona Hunter 

yeah. And you know, the power really lies in working together for me, like being with being around. Yeah. Being around the people that are committed to changing the paradigm and leaving the change of the paradigm in everyday actions. Yeah. And having these, you know, difficult conversations.

 

 

That’s why we’re doing that

 

Shona Hunter 

we’re doing now is absolutely like, that’s the way forward if we put all the power In corporations to make change to regulations, if we hand over all our power to governments to make the right laws and decisions and policies proxy it out just like, it’s up to them, they should be doing it, then we lose our power to make change. We’ve handed it all over, you know, it’s far more empowering to go, they’re going to do what they’re going to do. I’m going to do what I’m going to do. And I’m going to make sure that what that what that is makes a big difference. Yeah. Not just in my life, but in the lives of people around me. And that includes, you know, taking care of people, you know, and being available for people showing up for people when they need it, you know, in their, whatever their climate grief or their day to day shit, you know? Yeah, just the day to day shit of having to fucking turn up to work every day to be an extract and extract.

 

 

Yeah. All been extracted. Yes.

 

Shona Hunter 

So I’m simultaneously

 

 

Yes. Yes. Yes. And so

 

Shona Hunter 

how I’m really enjoying this conversation, by the way.

 

 

Great. Yeah.

 

Shona Hunter 

Yeah, sorry, interrupted thought process.

 

Bryn Edwards 

So what? What is it you’re enjoying about this conversation so far?

 

Shona Hunter 

Well, I’m just enjoying being able to just really express freely. Yeah, a bunch of stuff that, yeah, my thought patterns around the kinds of campaigning, you know, that we do and like the, the depth of thought that, that I have around it. That’s really refreshing. I think, rather than just what are the tools that you use and the strategies that you have, and key people and

 

Bryn Edwards 

I wanted to, I wanted to bring a, like, an almost an inner world perspective to it, or inner world journey to it. Because it, like I said, it can be overwhelming, and then people don’t want to look stupid. People don’t want to look daft. And so sometimes it’s easier to just go from than than asking the question, or, or, or saying like, I’m really angry, but I’m confused. And I’ve got this other feeling which you can’t quite place and I’ve had it before. Oh, that’s great. And all about this, and acknowledging that. So then you can move to the next slide.

 

 

Yeah. Because

 

Bryn Edwards 

we don’t, we can’t engage in cognitive and strategic thinking, if we haven’t processed the emotion that sits beforehand, got moved from one to the other.

 

Shona Hunter 

Oh, I’m useless if I haven’t worked out my staff before I try. Something you know.

 

Bryn Edwards 

And that’s just Yeah. What people think that is. Yeah. That’s human pattern. Yeah. As part of the human Ma,

 

Shona Hunter 

it’s everywhere. Yeah. Because we can’t sit with stuff. can’t fit with our stuff. Be with our stuff.

 

 

Yes. So I tell ourselves a story or avoid it or get to work.

 

Shona Hunter 

Yeah, take substances.

 

 

Yeah. Get busy.

 

Shona Hunter 

Get busy. everyone’s favourite busy. My personal downfall.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Yeah, busy. That’s the crack of the modern day person. Super addictive. We’ve been up to recently

 

 

busy really

 

 

want to do that. And so

 

 

the next question, next question.

 

Bryn Edwards 

The next question I wanted to ask is coming out of, you know, the personal experience. How, or how do we how do you begin to approach or influencing decision makers and, and the world around there? So, you know, we’ve always gone from the inner journey to now the outside part of it.

 

 

Yeah.

 

Shona Hunter 

Let’s, again, say it’s a multi prong approach. Definitely, first and foremost, yes. And, again, that there are lots of different I guess, tools that are used. I don’t really like using the word tools that approaches Yeah. And that’s of a natural consequence is not a deliberate Oh, we must. We need these key ingredients to make a movement work and be able to make these decision makers stand up and listen. I mean, there is a bunch of those. Yeah. But in the work that we do, it’s far more group grassroots. It’s far more like using what energy there is and using what people come to the table and using, you know, using what we have to affect change rather than Yeah, I mean, there’s definitely strategies but so for example, for me personally, my personal favourite is definitely civil disobedience in direct action.

 

 

Yes, I think for me that so let’s be clear. Yeah.

 

Bryn Edwards 

What does civil disobedience and direct action actually mean? And also, while we’re coupling it in there, what does non violence mean? Well,

 

Shona Hunter 

so nonviolent direct action is getting in the way, putting your own personal body on the line to stop, stop work starts to a true, yeah, it can also be disruptive, which is more the civil disobedience side of things. So you could have a flash mob at the train station. And it’s a big fun dance. And then at the end, you’re handing out flyers and you’ve disrupted people’s day. And it’s by nature, non violent, because you’re not harming anyone. You’re not using abusive language, you’re not damaging property. And you are showing up with compassion and seeing the humanity, humanity in the person that you’re, you know, stopping. So, for example, if you’re at a in a forest and you’re wanting to stop the workers, there’s no animosity towards the workers. There’s, there’s very much a peaceable approach. Yeah, around, I get it. This is hard for you. It’s your job. You need to pay the bills. You’re a human and

 

 

driven within this. Yeah.

 

Shona Hunter 

And I hear you this is, you know, and I hear your anger towards us. And I feel that this is really hard for you. And I’m not moving.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Yes. Yeah. I recognise you. And I’m not doing it. Yeah. Yeah, I’m not doing

 

Shona Hunter 

Yeah. Yeah. So there’s lots of different ways in I’m not here to fuck up your individual day. No, I’m just, I’m just here. And I’m not moving. Yes. So it’s basically, you know, being immovable a lot of the time. Yeah. And that in a forest situation can be, you know, sitting down in a road and stopping a truck. Or it can be chaining yourself locking yourself onto a truck, it can be creating some kind of, you know, block age device, like a tripod or a dragon where you take a big, you know, cement barrel into the ground and lock yourself into the cement barrel, so that can’t be moved, trace it, and that makes the workplace dangerous, and then they have to stop work. Or you can just like, show up in the bush and kind of, you know, play, play, play camo, and just, they know you’re in there. So they can’t work because they’re endangering your life. So you just don’t move. And then when they come to try and find you, you’re just sort of moving around a little bit. Yeah, there’s all sorts of different techniques in terms of actual stopping work for us blockade. And, I mean, it’s, there are some incredibly creative humans, not just here, obviously, all over the world that have done some incredible things. And you know, there’s things that are disruptive again, like, you know, dropping banners and flyering and stickering. And, you know, all of that kind of stuff, doing pay stops and things and, and then there’s some more creative actions where you’re, you know, disrupting things. Like, for example, I showed up to a FPC, the forest products commission were tendering out a bunch of forest. Basically, they’re calling it timber. But it was basically 1000s and 10s, of 1000s of hectares of forests that were tendering out to a buyer. So I turned up to the buying forum and sat through the whole presentation of the tender application process. And then at the end, I stood up and disrupted the meeting and offered FPC a giant check for $1 million to buy back all the forests, and that’s another way of like, that’s, that’s another way of doing nonviolent direct action or civil disobedience and being disruptive in that way that disrupts the way that people think, yeah, disrupts their day. Yes. And what happens in those block a corner like yeah, cuz

 

Bryn Edwards 

what needs that, but they, you know, we have these behaviours and patterns and ceremonies and things like that, like that, you know, the tendering process, and why not discard? disrupt?

 

Shona Hunter 

Yeah, why not? And maybe someone in that room or thinks something a little bit differently after that, as a result, as a result, you never know what effect that’s going to have. Yeah. And in the meantime, something like that makes a bunch of the community laugh and it’s fun, you know?

 

 

Yeah. It’s good things less seriously.

 

Shona Hunter 

Yeah. And it’s also just a fun thing to be a part of. So about it, specifically, in terms of like, what influences decision makers and the context of non

 

Bryn Edwards 

rejection just before that. What are the decisions you’re trying to influence Yeah, I suppose that’s

 

Shona Hunter 

technically, yeah, there’s a, there’s a forest management plan. And it’s a 10 year plan. And it’s joUf to begin to be reviewed in the middle of this year. And by the middle of 2023, there’ll be a new 10 year forest management plan for the state. Yeah. And that, that whole, that document governs the entire way that forest management decides what forests get loved. It decides how much what contracts are signed, it just, you know, it decides all the regulations and procedures around the management of forests. And what we want to influence his decision makers to turn that into a forest conservation plan. Yes. And to transition, the contracts and the workers into the plantation sector. And into farm forestry. 100%. Yeah. And that takes investing. Because we don’t want to be then buying old growth and, you know, native timber from Indonesia to replace our, you know, carry and Jarrod? Yeah, we we have to come up with a sustainable timber plan. Yes. And we have to do that locally and provide for our own needs locally, as you know, even just that we don’t want to be shipping stuff out halfway around the world, you know, together in a climate crisis. As long as if it’s recognised. Yeah,

 

Bryn Edwards 

guys, and we do have a need for timber,

 

Shona Hunter 

right? We do. And we also can create jobs. The forest for life transition plan creates, like up to 900 jobs in the region. Yeah. And currently, you know, it’s Yeah, and already, you know, plantation timber is 90% of the market anyway. Yes. So it’s, it’s really not difficult to do. So. It’s the key decision that we want to be made is that during this draft process, they’re drafting out, they’re drafting up the fade out, or the very complete, quick transition of the native timber sector.

 

Bryn Edwards 

So that would be that

 

Shona Hunter 

they bring up the contract. Yeah, they don’t renew any contract. Yeah.

 

Bryn Edwards  

So that would be the ultimate decision. Yeah. You’d like to be influencing at this point in time?

 

Shona Hunter 

That’s right. Yeah, at this point in time. And that means, you know, the two ministers that are responsible for creating that document. Dave Kelly, Minister for forestry, and Amber Sanderson the new Environment Minister and Minister for climate action, right. Yeah. Jade Sanderson Jade. The Jade Sanderson. Yeah, yeah. So those two ministers are responsible for, you know, their departments are responsible for writing up the forest management plan. And there is a review or submissions process that will happen this year. And then there’ll be a submissions process when the actual draft is relieved, released in the middle of next year. Right. And that’s the opportunity for stakeholders to be involved in right now. They’re, you know, there’ll be inquiry panels that are set up to look at those documents. And now’s the time to be influencing those decision makers to put key conservationists and people from other sectors of the I guess the the industries that rely on forests, to have a voice, yes, in that those inquiries. So the beekeeping industry and the tourism industry in the recreation industry, and even the food and wine industry, and, you know, relies so heavily on that Southern forests region, and the nature of that region is so intrinsically part of the value and the sale value of just, you know, what people do all the businesses down there if we didn’t have the forest down there, and people would be less way less likely to go? Yes.

 

 

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

 

Shona Hunter 

Yeah. So we want to see representatives from those industries in this inquiry process, and influencing, you know, that forest that new that New Forest Conservation Plan,

 

 

yeah.

 

Shona Hunter 

So that’s the that’s the key body of work that we’re trying to influence.

 

 

Yes.

 

Shona Hunter 

And there are so many ways that we, that we will influence that and direct action is one of them. Yes. And, you know, having conversations with key decision makers, on an individual level, you can do that I can do that. Students can do that. Anyone can do that. They’re your elected representative. And it’s their job to listen to you. Whatever concern you have, and whatever you want to see happen. It’s their job to make that happen. Yes, that’s what they’re paid to do. That’s what they got elected for. So you have to utilise that power. That’s a very, very powerful tool.

 

 

That system. Yes.

 

Shona Hunter 

And a lot of people are terrified of going to meet their local Member of Parliament because they’re like, well, I don’t know how many hectares of forests get cut down. I can’t possibly remember all the statistics. I don’t I can’t talk confidently and eloquently about this. Yes. And I’m going to get shut down in this meeting, because I don’t know anything about forests. What’s the bit that this minister has no idea about forests as well? And also, it’s irrelevant, because all you have to do is show up and say, I want forests protected. That’s what I want you, understory. That’s what I want to say. That’s what I want you to do. Just find a way that’s your job. And if you don’t know how to do it, go on Ask the wi forest Alliance, because I’ve worked it all out. Yeah. thought it through. I thought it through. Yeah. That’s a really powerful tool. Yes. And, yeah, an empowering part of what we do is empower people through having conversations like this, to actually use that tool that’s available to them. Yeah.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Yeah, that’s probably one of the most powerful things you can be doing this time. Yeah. Is that correct?

 

Shona Hunter 

Absolutely. Yeah, get in contact with your local member, and talk about the importance of forests. And you don’t even need to say why. It’s just, they’re important, and they need to be protected. Yeah. And we can support you if you want to have all the facts and figures and you want to leave them with a document that says, These are the reasons why. Just we’ve we’ve got all that stuff ready for you to go. So you can go and feel, you know, and we’re doing a bunch of trainings around that, too. So those people who really do need to feel that they have

 

Bryn Edwards 

the knowledge in that.

 

Shona Hunter 

Yeah, we’ll provide that training. Yeah.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Cuz it’s, yeah, it. There’s just, I there’s still this amusing part to me. Tell me of we’ve talked about the economic benefits of forests. Right. And, you know, you talked about the beekeeping industry, the tourist industry, and this at the other end. You know, we’ve also talked about changing the forest management plan to a conservation plan. And that all makes complete sense to my rational brain that the bit that’s missing. And again, this is another question that turns up in my podcast is where the grown ups gone. Right? That just go? No, we just shouldn’t mess around with this stuff. We, we shouldn’t I don’t want to hear your business plan. I don’t want to hear your economic benefit. I don’t want to hear all of that. This is just something we shouldn’t play with. Yeah. And it’s, I know that we have to play the game and pitch it at pitches at the level, because there are people who have been invested with the responsibility and the power to make decisions which impact the forests and many other things. But then we’re, you know, that system in and of itself has its own individual drivers and things like that, which means that, you know, right, longer term decision doesn’t always happen. And one of the things yeah, I would love at the moment to get somebody who we could have a discussion with on the podcast, just about whether politics and democracy is actually working. You know, given the fact that we have these four year cycles, and, and you know, we have human beings in this job in these jobs. And like anybody, particularly now during COVID, when you know, jobs can be scarce. Not so much at the moment. But, you know, people will do things to keep hold of their job, because they want to get paid, because you won’t put bread on the table, and they want to keep the lights on and everything. So people will do things which are contrary to their better nature, and their own conscience, because you just have to do it. So the question that keeps arising is, when are the grownups going to show up that guy, right?

 

 

Guys?

 

 

I actually have it you say? Yeah, and you know what? I, I myself have been on a journey in this conversation. Yeah,

 

Bryn Edwards 

through the emotive part, listening to what I can do. Yeah. Now I’m at the point of, we have to have space to even recognise that point that I’ve just said.

 

Shona Hunter 

Yeah. I think that actually, I personally have underestimated the ability for Western Australian Members of Parliament to be empathetic and to, to listen. Right. And actually, in my experience over the last three years, I have experienced when when we, when we do have those, when we build those relationships, we are having these conversations, and they are grown up conversations. And there, they have found ways to put protections in like, and there have been many, many inroads, even in the last three years, but over the course of these holes are super

 

 

reassured, you know,

 

Shona Hunter 

that there is there are always doors open and there are always listening ears, we just need to keep having those conversations turn up and turn up and do it. And the thing that, you know, basically, if, if 25,000 people stood on the doorstep of Parliament House, and demanded that forests be protected, they would be protected like that. Yes. And that that’s you and me. And the 25,000, you know, 20,000 people out there alongside us. It just it literally takes that Yeah, that’s it?

 

Bryn Edwards 

Well, in the back in vacuum England, we have just seen the equivalent to 25,000 people stand up and go. No, the top six football clubs cannot disappear into a European Super League. They’ve got the fans turned off when outrage No, it’s not happening. Guess what? stopped?

 

Shona Hunter 

Yeah. It’s very, very powerful. It’s very, very powerful. And that’s, that’s part of that direct action. You know,

 

 

guiding overwhelming feedback, yeah,

 

Shona Hunter 

it’s just that you have to show up, no matter what you’re doing, stop what you’re doing, show up and get in the way and use your voice. And that put the power of mass movement is something that I fully fully prescribe to that I’m, you know, and there will be there, there will be a time this year when we’re going to be calling on 25,000 people to gather for the forests with that we’re planning that for November. So there will be a time and and, you know, everyone needs to show up. Yes. And then it’ll happen. It just takes like everyone being there at the same time in the same place. You know, and it doesn’t happen in a in a silo or a vacuum. You know, it’s on the back of, you know, 40 years of campaign. Oh, yeah. So on the back of, you know, everybody, you know, the Nana’s stitching leaves and you know, whatever, whatever else, everyone’s doing all those little things. It’s all part of the movement that gets 25,000 people that the film is going to get 25,000 people there. Yes. All the other things that we’ve been doing in campaigning is the stuff that motivates people to actually show up and brings to light the issue, educates brings awareness and raises the money so that we can keep building the awareness, you know, yes. All of that is is part of it. Right? Yeah. And then and then we end up with that. It is actually the only thing and if, and, you know, imagine if we had a active blockade in the forests every single week, if people just said, I’m not going to show up for work, I’m just going to go on camp in the bush and refuse to move every single time on, let’s buy one. three out of the four times, we’ve set up a blockade in the last three years, the forest has been protected. Yeah. When we set up a campaign, Lewin, it was there for three months, and the law and forest had started to be locked. And we rocked up on a Friday morning, and the workers didn’t show up. And they never showed up again. We were there for three months century, just keeping watch and witnessing, making sure. And then we got an announcement that not just low and forest, but all two tiered carry forests of that particular calibre would be there’d be a moratorium on the logging of those forests. And then, as a result of all the campaigning that we just did in the election period, recently, the the the announcement was made that those two to carry forests, will the moratorium will extend out to the forest management plan. So another three years. So those 10s of 1000s of hectares of Carrie forest, oh, no, not 6000 hectares, or carry for us to protect it. And they will be written out of the forest management plan. We’ve we’re fully confident of that. And that’s, you know, obviously, again, the blockade Didn’t happen in a vacuum. But it was the catalyst like if we hadn’t have shown up and stopped work that day and drawn attention to the this beautiful forest and issue, then we wouldn’t have had that result we needed. We needed everything. But I do believe in the power of standing up and refusing to move. Yeah,

 

Bryn Edwards 

I think that’s a really powerful message, because it’s easy to be quite divided, individualised and think. But to actually see that people come together and then this was the result and this was the impact of that. And it’s tangible. That’s a different story.

 

Shona Hunter 

Yeah. 6000 hectares of carriers rainmaking that makes rain, you know. Yeah. And it draws down tonnes of carbon. Yes. tonnes. Yeah. And it is a home for you know, so many different species from, you know, the mycelium in the soil all the way up to the canopy cockatoos, and then in the canopy, you know, that gazillion different species. And it’s, you know, it’s got cultural heritage values, it’s, you know, they’re the indigenous cathedrals, they’re the spiritual places. They’re just as culturally significant and sacred as, you know, rock caves and ancient paintings. And they are like these men. That’s what, you know, the, the, we’re dandy people, like, you know, Uncle, uncle, Uncle Wayne and Zack Webb. That’s what they say in the film. You know, this? Yeah, these are our ancestors. And this is our, this is our cultural belonging here. You’re destroying the life force is what Uncle Uncle Wayne says in the film, you’re destroying the man? Yeah.

 

Bryn Edwards 

So how is it being shown a hunter looking into the world like this so deeply? How does that impact you on that sort of day to day?

 

Shona Hunter 

Well, before I answer that question, I just want to acknowledge that there are like, yeah, people in this organisation,

 

 

as well. And I’m just asking you, your journey.

 

Shona Hunter 

Sure. And,

 

Bryn Edwards 

yeah, suppose the journey to this point. Now, as you look into the world, and you see this issue quite deeply, and you probably see other things quite deeply as a consequence, because you have that capacity to how does that weigh on you, or play in your everyday being?

 

Shona Hunter 

I think the most challenging like, when you talk about weight, you know, that the, the most challenging thing for me is reconciling the, the level of investment that I put in to this work. it detracts from the, my, my presence with my family of with the children that I’m trying to protect. And that’s something that I struggle with a lot is then you know, the amount of emotional energy that it takes to, you know, do this work.

 

 

Yes. And to just turning up nine to five and punching a ticket. No,

 

Shona Hunter 

and it’s not. It’s not just, and the community work that’s involved, as well like this, that grief support work, and that supporting people and being available for people and that and also just, you know, being a community organiser means that you have to be available after hours, because most of the people that you’re working with are working and they’re working with you after they’re working. Yes. Because they’re incredible volunteers gifting their time.

 

 

And so they do have to go in Yeah, for us to put bread on the table.

 

Shona Hunter 

Yeah. And you know, my kids don’t ever want to see a forest block out again. You know, and it’s done. Yeah. And it’s just big, because it’s taking up their time with me and my presence with them. And they understand, like, I’ve explained to them, you know, why we do the work that we do. But that’s that’s probably the in terms of heavy weight and the most challenging part of what it’s like being me and doing this kind of work. And it’s ironic that I’m losing out on time with my kids, because I’m trying to create a better future for them. That irony is definitely not lost on me. Yeah. And yeah, yeah. And I I I am mostly so I come alive with the work like it’s not something that brings me down and I’m incredibly lucky. But I have a sense of resilience. And I acknowledge that there are a lot of people out there that don’t have the mental capacity or the emotional capacity to carry this kind of load and this kind of work. And that I have, you know, that, that I have. Yeah, I’m lucky, I guess. Yes. And that it have the capacity have the

 

 

fitness

 

Shona Hunter 

and because, right, and because I have that privilege, and I need to use it. Yes. And that’s that sense of like, this is, this is, my, this is work that’s important to me, this is what I’m here for. Yeah. And I know that deeply, like, This work is what I’m here for. Yes. And what, you know, when we save the forest in three years time, we’ll move on to bigger things.

 

 

Right, it’s just gonna be, and I can be tough to put a fleet up.

 

Shona Hunter 

I do you know, and I create balance, like, I have a lot of fun. I have a lot of, you know, I do have a lot of balancing, I do take care of car be serious. And one of those things, too, is like being paid fairly for this work. Yeah, something that I’m always acknowledging is that activists and campaigners are really underpaid and overworked and they carry so much of this mental emotional load. And I’m, you know, there is this paradigm, that’s part of the capitalist neoliberal paradigm, that if you’re doing something that’s good, you don’t get paid. Yeah. And we have to break that shit down. Yes, it’s enabling. It’s enabling the extractive economy to continue because capitalism love it, that we’re all fucking burnt out and underpaid. Yeah, you know, imagine if we were all getting paid fairly for what we were doing.

 

 

And we’re all doing Oh, it was imaginative,

 

Shona Hunter 

right? Yeah, they’d be losing, actually. And there’s a lot, there’s this notion in this kind of move in this in the environmental sector and movement, that if you take money for what you do, you’re a sellout. Or that you become corrupted, or that you’re not really entitled to it. And that you should be doing the work for free up for the love of it. Because, you know, that’s how it is. That’s just this, that we’re stuck in that. And I’m constantly having conversations with people around if we were getting paid, not just fairly, but at the same rate of some of these companies, CEOs. Imagine the capacity for change that we would have, you know, and even if I didn’t need all that money for my personal lifestyle, imagine what capacity I would have, if I could reinvest that, yes, back into regenerative economies back into, you know, employing other people to do the same thing that I’m doing and to build movement. And we can turn the economic ship around by reinvesting where our money goes and paying good people to do good things.

 

 

Yes.

 

Shona Hunter 

Yeah. Awesome. And so that’s part of me. Taking care of myself is advocating for paid activism. Yeah, campaigning. Because then I can take care of my family. I’m not struggling. Yeah. On the bones, my arm strangely

 

Bryn Edwards 

enough, it can then become a nine to five job with space for the family. Yeah,

 

Shona Hunter 

yeah. And I have boundaries around the work that I do. I didn’t in the beginning, but I’ve learned Now, in order for me to be sustainable in the work that I do. I’ve got to have clear boundaries around the work that I’m doing and what I can and can’t do. And the times I’m starting, and obviously there’s flexibility because of the nature of the work and it’s different hours. But I yeah, I stopped, I’d stopped overworking and being underpaid, because I realised that I was going to get burnt out and then I’d be good for fucking nothing.

 

 

Yes. You know,

 

Shona Hunter 

I’d be good. I couldn’t there’s no way I could

 

 

do the work pulled in to down.

 

Shona Hunter 

Yeah. So I don’t want that to happen to anyone who’s doing good work.

 

 

No, you know,

 

Shona Hunter 

the people that are doing good work deserve to be paid the most, to support them. You know, so they can go and get the health care that they need to keep doing the work.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Yeah, that’s I really have to flog so they

 

Shona Hunter 

can pay, you know, childcare and they can have a they can afford a cleaner to come and clean their house. Yes. So that they can focus on the work. Yes. That kind of stuff like it does make a difference

 

 

does. Yeah.

 

Bryn Edwards 

So the last question I asked all my guests. Yeah, it’s a hypothetical one. I do. It’s always fun. If I could just slow everyone down for five or 10 minutes. And then Shona could upload a question into the collective consciousness. Everyone just sat children reflected on your, your question. What would it be?

 

Shona Hunter 

It has to be? I don’t know who said it, but it is a quote. Yeah. It has to be what makes you come alive. Go and do that.

 

 

Yes.

 

Shona Hunter 

Not what you need to do what you think you need to do what you’ve been told to do, but what makes you come alive? That question, it’s my favourite question. Yeah.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Awesome. I’ve really enjoyed this conversation.

 

 

It’s been great.

 

 

Yeah, yeah, really? superbe

 

Bryn Edwards 

Yeah. So if people want to reach out whether they come to,

 

Shona Hunter 

they come to the Wi Fi, Alliance wi fa.org.au. And join the team. That’s a big, big fat button on a website. Yeah. Join in, click the button and fill in your details. And I’ll be contacting you and and asking you, what’s the thing that, you know, draws you to this? What are you gonna, what’s your particular thing? And also acknowledging that some people don’t have a particular thing and they just want to get direction and just like, yeah, and we’ve got to plan for that as well.

 

 

Yeah, yeah. Super. Yeah. You so much for your time. It’s been a pleasure. Thanks. Thanks.

Leave a Comment