#196: The Importance of Heart Rate Variability in Your Life – Joel Jamieson

Measuring your heart rate variability, or HRV, may be one of the most important measures that is easily accessible to you in terms of our health, fitness, and overall life longevity, but what exactly is heart rate variability? and how can you measure it?

That’s exactly what I explored this week with Coach Joel Jamieson who has over 20 years of working with heart rate variability while training Olympic athletes, MMA fighters, Navy Seals, NBA and NFL stars.

Joel explains exactly what HRV is – a measurement of recovery – while also breaking down the basic principles of exercise. He explains how under recovery is at the heart of most injuries.

We then discuss how you can measure HRV and what are key features to look for in selecting a measurement device. Joel then explains how HRV is scored and how to interpret the score and what to do with it.

The conversation then broadened out to explore the impact of stress on our HRV and how a high base level of HRV places us in good stead to face the stresses and uncertainty of the world we operate it.

This is a super important measure, because as Joel puts forward – it is non-invasive and easy to track over a long period of time giving you a real indicator of life longevity.

Joel is super clear and concise throughout this whole conversation dispelling many myths along the way.

Whatever level of exercise or focus of well-being you are at, by the end of this conversation you’ll have a clear idea of what the heart rate variability is, and how important it is to you and how you can go measure, track it and make some significant changes in your life.

Joel: http://www.8weeksout.com/

Morpheus: http://www.trainwithmorpheus.com/

Read Full Transcript

 

Bryn Edwards 

Measuring your heart rate variability, or HRV, may be one of the most important measures easily accessible to us in terms of our health, fitness, and overall life longevity. But what exactly is heart rate variability? Well, that’s exactly what I explored this week with Coach Joel Jamieson. Joel has over 20 years of working with heart rate variability. And over his time as trained Olympic athlete, MMA fighters, navy seals, NBA, NFL stars, so really knows what he’s talking about. And it’s been a real expert in this field. Joel really explains what HRV is, but not just HRV, he really breaks down the principles of exercise, so that we can truly understand what is it that we’re actually doing when we start to hit the gym or go out training. He also links HRV, to how we can chronically accumulate injuries. He also then looks at, you know, how do we go about measuring it gives us tips on which devices to look for, and then with the scores, how to actually read them, what they actually mean, you’re left with absolutely it dispels all the myths in this area for us. But then the conversation takes an interesting turn and starts to broaden out, we started to look at the impact of stress on our body, and how we can measure that with HRV. And how the counter point of having a real healthy HRV level gives us the ability to handle the stress that the outside world throws at us, you know, particularly the volatile, uncertain world that we live in. This is a super important measure, because as Joel says it’s non invasive and Easy, easy to track over a long period of time is a real indicator of lifelong gravity. Joel is really super clear and concise. throughout this whole conversation. Like I said, he dispels a lot of myths, and he makes it really accessible for you to understand. So whether you’re, you know, a top level athlete, an aspiring everyday hero, somebody who just goes to the gym or somebody who just wants to take their health and well being that bit more seriously, then by the end of this conversation, you’re going to have a clearer idea of what the heart rate variability is, and how important it is to you and how you can go measure, track it and make some significant changes in your life. So enjoy, Joel.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Hello, and welcome back to WA Real. I’m your host, Bryn Edwards Today I have the great pleasure of welcoming Joel Jamieson all the way from Seattle to the show.

 

Joel Jamieson 

Yes, welcome. Thanks for having me. It’s definitely a long way across the world from you right now,

 

Bryn Edwards 

Indeed, indeed, it’s an amazing demonstrates the amazing use of technology to pull in, you know, experts from around the world.

 

Joel Jamieson 

I mean, imagine a couple years ago, you’d never even see somebody that lives in your side of the world, let alone talk to him on a big screen. Yeah.

 

Bryn Edwards 

So Joe, you’re one of the world’s foremost leading authorities when it comes to strength conditioning and energy systems. you’ve trained Olympic athletes, NFL stars, MBA, navy seals, UFC champions. And one of the things that you’re particularly known for is about heart rate variability. And this seems to be particularly here in the circles that I move in. With my training this heart rate variability is something that gets talked about a lot. But I’m not entirely sure everyone’s crystal clear about what it is how we measure it, how we use it. So I thought we’d take the time to dive into that today, if that’s right.

 

Joel Jamieson 

Yeah, absolutely. And there’s there’s definitely a lot to unwrap there. And the more you understand it, the more you can realise or recognise why people are confused, or why it’s not quite as clear because there’s a lot being represented. And that single number and the body itself has multiple overlapping systems that influence HRV. So I think it’s important topic, because like you said, it’s been discussed, it’s in more and more devices, you see it mentioned, but turn it into something that’s actually improving your training or improve your lifestyle isn’t always as simple as people, you know, needed to be.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Yeah, yeah. And just before we start, it is gathering a lot of focus and attention, does it does it warrant that? Is it an important?

 

Joel Jamieson 

Yeah, absolutely. I think that as a single number, and as a number more important, it’s, that’s not invasive, I can take my measurement for HRV quickly and easily relative to a blood test or any sort of more, you know, invasive measures, it’s easy to get, it’s something that’s not cost prohibitive for most people. And it does contain a lot of valuable information. it correlates to a lot of different measures of healthspan lifespan, injury risk and probability performance. I mean, it does correlate to a very broad number of things that could be valuable. So I think it’s you know, it’s not the end all be all Single metric of the world. But you know, right now I’d say as far as a single number is concerned, particularly when it’s easy to get it is the best that we have. And I do think it’s valuable people understand. Super. So

 

Bryn Edwards 

let’s dig in what is heart rate variability?

 

Joel Jamieson 

Yes, I mean, it’s a million dollar question, I would say, there’s multiple ways to talk about it, we can, we can talk about the math and the formulas behind it. But ultimately, to really understand what it’s doing, you have to just go back to how the body works fundamentally. So most people have heard of what’s called the central nervous system, right? The body of the system that moves you around and provides locomotion and all that sort of stuff. But people are probably a little bit less familiar with what’s called the autonomic nervous system. And there’s there’s two halves of that was a probably actually heard of. So the first one is the fighter flight system, people have heard of that, right? That’s, that’s the stress response system. And the stress response has been discussed for 5060 years. Now you go back all the way to Walter cannon, Han cell, a, Robert sapolsky. All these people talking about the stress response, and like its name, and first, the stress response is designed to respond to stress. And that can be physiological stress, it can be psychological stress, really, it’s usually a combination for most people. And at the heart of that response is an increase in energy production. Right? So the easiest way to think about that is if I think about something that’s threatening or scary, or if I have a phobia of spiders, or whatever, and I think about that my heart rate elevates. Yeah, same way, if I have to do some exercise, my heart rate elevates, right? And what’s responsible for that elevation? Well, that’s basically the stress response at work. So its job is to elevate our buyers capabilities by producing more energy, because if I am under stress, well, I need the energy, right? Yeah. Now, the other half the equation is what’s called the parasympathetic nervous system that people might be a little bit less familiar with. But that’s called the rest and digest or rest of them so or whatever you want to call it. But basically, that that job, that systems job is to kind of counterbalance that sympathetic system. And by that, I mean, its job is to store energy, it’s to rebuild the energy stores that were, you know, broken down during the stress period. And it’s an anabolic side equation. So it builds things back up. So remodels, tissue rebuild tissue, it makes tissue stronger, it functions, it has the immune function behind it, like, it basically works together with the sympathetic system to cope with everything you put your body through. And it’s going to be most active during periods of rest and periods of recovery. And of course, during sleep, we see a very high level of parasympathetic activation. So these two systems govern basically how your body’s physiology respond to the external world. So whatever it is you’re doing to it, these two systems work together to help you cope and help you survive. And then really, fitness is just about surviving that the environment better next time you are exposed to it. So if I’m put under load, my stress response system produces the energy I need to cope with that. And then ideally, my parasympathetic system makes my body stronger. So it’s more effective, more efficient and more effective at coping with the same load the next time, right. So these two systems are fundamental to fitness and to life itself. Now, the reason I mentioned this backstory is because ultimately what heart rate variability is doing is giving us a measure or a gauge of where that parasympathetic nervous system is at how active it is, what’s overall potential to be active is and kind of where our body is, in this cycle, or this curve between the stress side of the equation and the recovery side of the equation. If we were to draw like a spectrum, really, there is a spectrum on the far end would be extreme stress, right, the maximum heart rate or the maximum psychological stress, that’s the far end of the stress response. And then the far end, the recovery is really where your body’s in the deep, parasympathetic state, and all of its energies will be mobilised towards recovery, repair, regeneration. And really, we live kind of back and forth in those states across our daily lives across our body cycles. And what what the heart rate variability numbers doing is analysing the rhythm behind the heart rate, because that’s driven largely by that parasympathetic nervous system. And it’s giving us a gauge or an overall metric of where we’re at. And so there’s, there’s lots of formulas to get there. There’s lots of different systems and algorithms and ways you can calculate that. But at the end of the day, that’s ultimately what heart rate variability is about. It’s about understanding where our body is, in terms of that stress recovery cycle, that stress recovery curve. And then from that we can infer a lot of information about how our body is doing whether or not we’re going in the right direction, what our overall health is, and the resilience stresses and all that but aside from the deep dive the technical details, understanding that that is what HIV is doing is probably the best place for most people to start.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Yeah. And I think even listening to you the most important what are the big things that jump out there is? I think, I think we all you know, in our quest to get stronger or fitter or whatever it is pursuit whereafter we all know about going in and putting the load on and engaging with that sympathetic nervous system. You know, and then we get into this whole culture, culture of, you know, smash myself and things like that, how often do we actually approach our rest of relaxation and our parasympathetic nervous system with the same vein? And same? Exactly focus? Yeah,

 

Joel Jamieson 

I think it’s an easy mistake to make to think that the workout and the load is the driving force behind our movements. But they’re really it’s just a trigger. And whether or not that trigger leads to a change is whether or not our body puts the energy into recovery that it needs to. So you don’t you don’t get stronger or more efficient, or fast or whatever, in the gym, those things only happen to the processes of recovery, we use training as a load to stimulate our body that to say, basically, it needs to get better. And then only if we put our body under that recovery microscope or into that recovery state, I should say, do those things actually happen. And the problem is, you know, people will out train their recovery ability, as you mentioned, meaning I start seeing progress, and everything’s good. And then all sudden, things slow down. And so my natural instinct is just increased load, make myself train harder, push myself harder, go harder, but yeah, go harder. But the problem is, once you exceed the bodies and reserve to recover, then you’re just kind of going down the slope, the other direction, you can only there’s only so much the body can do in terms of recovery, because there’s only so many hours a day for it to recover. And those things can be changed even, you know, significant mental stress. So it’s very easy for people make the mistake of our training, their recovery ability, their ability to withstand that load. And that’s where you get bad things happening. And I guess the best case is you just don’t make progress, you just plateau. But the worst case is you go the other direction, you start to hit 30 negative injuries or you get, you know, more injuries or serious injuries, those sorts of things. So it’s a it’s a big problem. I think the biggest problem in fitness is just people’s lack of awareness of how important recovery site is.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Yeah, so so many of our injuries and niggles are a function of not resting and recovering. Well, I mean,

 

Joel Jamieson 

if you think about it, if you really think about we put the buy in your load. And that means we’re stressing these tissues. And the process of recovery is repairing the damage and the micro tears and the things we’ve done to stress those tissues, if you don’t repair those things adequately, yeah, and you’re training yourself over and over again, then those tissues become much more susceptible to injury, I mean, it’s really injury is the opposite of fitness, right? It’s literally the polar end, like fitness is preparing the body to be more effective at coping with load. And injury means the body wasn’t prepared to cope with load. So certainly the the process of injury, you know, we see injury as a single event, right, we pull we pull our hamstring or our quad or we do something that’s you know, we lift something and all sudden something hurts it’s injuries is feels very acute, but most injuries, you know, are the result of chronic things that have happened. I mean, don’t get me wrong, there are there are the there are certainly the injuries are acute. But the majority of injuries are just as chronic breakdown of tissue over time, that wasn’t able to fully repair itself. And thus, it was not able to cope with the load that it was placed on there. So if David plays a big, big role in injuries and everything else,

 

Bryn Edwards 

I think this is really valuable, because it’s setting the ground upon which, because I think most people know that doing some sort of exercise is good for them. But we never actually set this scene. And you know, earlier on, you mentioned that, you know, fitness is our capacity to deal with the environment outside. So if we’re putting our body into this new environment, it’s going to change but then it needs their the time to adapt and recover to change to the new environment, which is exactly the family that’s that’s just that’s just how the body is designed to work. It was designed to be exposed to an environment. And then it was designed to adapt to that environment.

 

Joel Jamieson 

But that that process of adaption adaptation takes energy and it takes time. I mean, it takes energy to rebuild muscle tissue, it takes energy to rebuild glycogen stores, it takes time to, to strengthen tendons and ligaments, it takes time for the nervous system to to improve its function. I mean, all those things are just a function of energy and time. You can’t get the results without that energy time happening.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Hmm. And I suppose, you know, you stick a cultural context behind it, where we’re all into the, you know, results now and you know, given six weeks and they’ll give you washboard abs and it’s

 

Joel Jamieson 

Yeah, exactly what I mean that like the problem is you can feel the workout and so it’s it’s it’s intuitive thing, oh, there’s this feeling of training fatigued. And being you know, being crushed is is the field I need to get to to see the improvement. But that’s again, that’s just the stimulus. It’s everything in between those workouts where the results are actually happening. You don’t feel recovery. So that’s the problem is if you can’t feel it, per se, it’s not as easy for people to quantify it, which is where I think our event really can play a role.

 

Bryn Edwards 

So obviously, not deep diving right down into the algorithms. But you know, heart rate variability turns up on numerous devices now we’ve got Apple I know a lot of people I know where garmins is the aura watch. Whoop, And there’s your Morpheus device. Yep, are all devices?

 

Joel Jamieson 

Yeah, I mean, I wish that were the case, it makes life a bit easier, but they’re not. So I’ll kind of talk about some of the differences. The first thing just be aware of is that you really cannot compare the number from a heart rate variability in one system to the heart number of another system, because they’re all using different math or using different algorithms using different filtering. And the number they’re giving you may be completely different on a different scale is kind of the easiest way to think about it. So you can’t really say oh, well, I’m major B is this on one system? So why is it so different another system? The reason is, is because they are very different calculations. So it’s not standardised the way that let’s say heart rate or blood pressure is those are very standardised numbers, right? Heart rate is just the number of times that beats a minute and blood pressure is, you know, blood pressure. So those things are very easy to compare regards to what you’re used to measuring. But heart rate variability is not just because there are 12 different math on more than 12 axes, the multiple different ways of calculating gets a different number. So first and foremost, that’s the important thing is just you have to use one system to compare against itself, you really can’t track HRV and for systems are really gaining out of it. The second thing is one and stick with it, choose choose one and stick with it. So then let’s talk about choosing one. Obviously, I create Morpheus way I did for reason, but we’ll talk about the two broad ways that people measure it actually not the backup. Yeah, the second piece of this is the sensor itself. Yeah. Alright, so the most accurate sensor without question is the chest strap. And the reason is because it’s measuring the electrical signal in the heart, from the heart and essentially giving us some very, very, very accurate reading of the time between heartbeats, which is what we need. So those were kind of the original systems, I had the Cisco bioforce HRV, use a chest strap, it’s it’s the most accurate, but a lot of people find it fairly inconvenient to put chest strap on and measure HRV. And so the newer generations, including Morpheus use what’s called an optical sensor. And an optical sensor does not use electrical signals, it uses basically a sensor, a laser to shoot, or lights or LED light to shoot that basically into the skin. And it measures the reflection back and calculates it that way. So the thing to note is that it is slightly less accurate. It’s more prone to errors, if you’re moving around during the test. It is it is a little bit less accurate. But it’s far, far more convenient. And for the vast majority people out there necessarily but but here’s the big caveat to that all of those sensors are not created equal. There are some systems with very, very poor sensors that are that are giving you an HIV number that’s next to worthless. And there are some that are good. The one that Murphy’s users has been published in actual research and is a very proven sensor. But you can’t say the same about a lot of them, unfortunately. So that is really the limiting factor in a lot of these, it’s the sensor itself, if the sensor is not capable of measuring accurately, then the number you’re going to get going to be mostly meaningless. It’s just not accurate. So assuming you’re using, you know, one fairly accurate sensor. The other big thing is, you’ve got two ways to measure it. One is just kind of you have it on all the time. And it just periodically measures it or maybe it measures it period, like you track your sleep like a lot of we’re doing, or you can standardise that measurement period like Morpheus does, where it’s a two and a half measurement, two and a half minute measurement. And we suggest doing in the morning. And the reason that I do that is because when you’re just kind of periodically measuring it, you’re just kind of getting into random little pieces of data. And the problem is, HIV is a very sensitive measure. And just if I’m taking I’m sleeping, for example, depending on what stage of sleep I’m in, I’m gonna get a very different number. If I’m walking around in the street, it’s next to worthless because made your resume incredibly low because I’m walking around and need energy for that. So the majority of research I just I just wrote the section in the book, The nsca is new textbook sports. So they’re they’re certified sports scientists coach course. I mean, I did all the research, to make sure I was up to date with things. And the reality is, the research is doesn’t support measuring it 24 hours a day, or trying to extrapolate little random measurements, it’s just not a very good way of doing it’s like if I was to measure your blood pressure 10 times a day, I would just get 10 different numbers, depending on what you’re doing. You know, if you finished a workout, your blood pressure, one thing, if you were sitting home on the couch, your blood pressure would be another thing, it wouldn’t really tell me a whole lot other than what you were doing. But when we measure HRV in a daily basis in the standardised fashion that we do, then we can infer how your body is changing once baseline level of parasympathetic function is. And that gives us a much clearer picture. So we’re trying to get a daily snapshot, and then put those snapshots together to understand that the trajectory of the path that you’re on, versus taking these random snapshots all over the place. Now the only way you can do that accurately if you if you did want to measure all the time, you would literally have to have a sensor that measures it all the time. But the reason that none of them do that whether it’s whooper or any of them is because you would just you’d be a battery does a couple of hours. It takes a lot of battery power to measure accurately. The The level you need for HRV. So that’s why we’re in whoop and Garmin, all these apps don’t have 24 hour continuous HIV, it would literally kill your batteries in a couple of hours. So what they’re all what they’re doing is just taking these random 30 seconds or one minute snapshots, and then trying to stitch them together. But it’s just, it’s just not a very accurate way. And the unfortunate thing is, I understand why people want it that way. Because it’s more convenient to just have it being done in the background, it’s easier if you don’t have to do anything. But the reality is that data is just a lot more unreliable, it’s a lot less accurate, because it’s not giving us a daily comparison. You know, like, if I was going to measure your testosterone function or your blood pressure, I’d want you know, a consistent measurement time, I’d want to make sure that that’s why you take blood tests, they want to control your diet, you know, they don’t they don’t want you fasting for certain periods. Because those things influence those numbers. Yeah, so the long story short, like I said, is, whatever you’re using, you want to use it the same system, you ideally you want to make sure you’re using a centre that has some validation, or is well done, you know, well, you system and has some research behind it. And ideally, you want to use something that is that two and a half to three minute measurements in the day, which there are other ones besides Morpheus, you know, there’s I afleet mag wave, I believe does that these days, there’s HRV HRV for training and there are other apps out there to do this, I would just tell you, those ones are going to be more accurate and give you better gauges than the ones you just kind of wear it passively. And you whenever you get you get, you just don’t know where that data is actually coming from, you know, when they’re measured it, how they’re measuring it, or what they’re getting the end result from. So you

 

Bryn Edwards 

won’t you won’t one where you specifically have the functionality to do the tap control.

 

Joel Jamieson 

Yes, and the Apple Watch does that as well. And the data of the Apple Watch sensor is that it is fairly good. And it does allow you to control that. So I mean, if nothing else, the Apple Watch sensor will do that. And the HIV pretraining allows you to use your, your camera phone sensor as well. And that was built by Mark rotini. He’s a good researcher, he knows what he’s doing. And you’ll find that the people in this industry that are research based so that you know, it’s for a long time, they’re all in that sort of frame of two to three minute measurements or 62nd measurements, but consistent times you ended them are really going towards measure, you know, ad hoc all throughout the day or night and really know not know where that data came from.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Yeah. So you have your measuring device, you do your test, you get your score, can you give us an idea of the it’s individualised but the range of scores that we get and what they actually told me?

 

Joel Jamieson 

Yes, you mean, again, that that kind of is the hard part because different devices. So ultimately, what you usually get into is a number in terms of milliseconds, which is the average variability of heart rate across period of time in milliseconds. But most app,

 

Bryn Edwards 

just so we’re clear, when you say variability that that works on the assumption that say, My heart’s beating for 60 beats per second. That’s one. Technically, that’s one beat every second or

 

Joel Jamieson 

second. That do you think, right. That’s the assumption. It’s,

 

Bryn Edwards 

it’s No, it’s not. Yeah, point nine 1.1.

 

 

Yes.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Exactly. That level of average variability between the heart beats across Yes. period is Yeah,

 

Joel Jamieson 

we’re looking at. Exactly. And so the reason for that is, is, as you mentioned, most people think, you know, well, my heartbeats like a metronome. But it just, it doesn’t. And it doesn’t, because it varies in cycle with your breathing patterns. So and that essentially goes back to the person made, they suddenly talked about. So essentially, it works this way, if I was to, like, just cut out the parasympathetic nervous system, your heart rate has an intrinsic value, and what that is, or most people’s, but 100 beats per minute, and it would be extremely metronome like so if I literally just disconnected your patient, that system to keep you alive for a second, your heartbeat would literally beat about 100 beats per minute, almost everybody’s, and it would be extremely metronome like, Yeah, but we have a parasympathetic nervous system. And as it turns on, and turns off, or cranks up and cranks down everyone look at it in cycle with your breathing as we breathe out, we are turning that parasympathetic system on or it’s turning on, I should say. And as we breathe in, it’s it’s decreasing its function. And so it naturally has a cyclic pattern to it insight, you know, in this periodic cycle with our breathing. And so as we’re sitting there, measuring heart rate, you know, we see the average in terms of number of beats per minute. But what we’re not seeing unless you measure heart rate variability, is how that heart rate is changing, you know, speeding up and slowing back down, speeding up and slowing back down in cycle with a respiration. And that’s ultimately what heart rate variability is doing is telling us, what’s the average level of that variation across the measure across the time he measured it? Yeah, so greater variability, essentially higher number tells us that parasympathetic system had a bigger influence. It was causing a bigger slowdown when it was on and yes, bigger speed and back up and it was when it was off. So the greater the greater the input that person thick nervous system, the greater the variability between heartbeats. On average across the time you’re measuring it,

 

Bryn Edwards 

right? And going back to what you said earlier, this, it gives us the measure of how switched on our parasympathetic nervous. Exactly,

 

Joel Jamieson 

exactly. And that’s why it’s important to measure it very. Yes, exactly. That’s why it’s important to measure it on a on a standardised basis, because we want to see how it’s changing on a day to day to day basis around the same time, if we just measure it, when you’re walking around, then we just see a very low HRV. You know, you need to be in a fairly rested state while you’re measuring it to get a good accurate measurement of that parasympathetic system being turned on, because as soon as your heartbeat, so to go from your normal resting heart rate up to about 100 beats per minute, it’s it’s really just the person with has just turned it off. We go above 100 beats per minute, it’s more of a sympathetic system turning on. Yes. So anytime you’re above 100 beats per minute, there is no no real HRV is very little parasympathetic function happening. It’s mostly just the person with a system, you know, receiving and turn off to guess that point. So that’s why it’s kind of worthless to measure HIV just walking around and working out or doing these things. Like it’s just not active, because you’re, you’re using the sympathetic system at that point in time. So, going back to your question, you know, again, that number is going to be different based on the system. But in general, you know, a higher number means that parasympathetic system is is more active and more turned on then a lower number in which, you know, the easy thing to think about this, that most people make the mistake of thinking, Oh, well, higher number must be good and lower number must be bad. That’s kind of intuitive thing, right? Like, well, it makes sense. You think, Okay, well, my body is putting more energy towards the recovery side, that must be a good thing. If it’s putting less energy towards it, that must be a bad thing. That’s a very, you know, it’s a nice, it’s an intuitive thing. And it makes sense. The problem with that line of thought is it just tells us the bison different point in the curve. So, you know, it’s hard to mentally draw a curve here. But let’s say you’re, let’s say you’re just a good you can do a workout, you’re starting from a baseline that can normal baseline, I do a workout, obviously, my HRV goes very far down, because I’m putting my body under a lot of stress. And then major v gradually comes back up after that work, as I come back to normal. And the major, we will go up above kind of my normal baseline, as I put more and more energy towards recovery. And then as I buy is fully recovered, it kind of returns back to its normal baseline. So it’s going through the cycle of very low to very high to back down to normal, right. And where it is in that curve tells us kind of where our body is in that cycle. So if it’s if it’s really low, well, yeah, that means your body’s still pretty, pretty early on the recovery process is still going through that pattern. If we are really high, on the other hand, it tells us again, that our body’s still devoting a lot of energy towards recovery mean, it probably hasn’t fully gone through the cycle. And then if we start hrb, kind of come back towards our normal baseline, where we usually would be in a resting state, it tells us that recovery process is probably finished or gotten mostly back to where it started. So if we think about this, from a measurement standpoint, if we’re really low, it is usually pretty obvious, it’s your body’s still under a fairly high load. If however, we see it’s really high, or it’s much higher than, you know, baseline, it doesn’t necessarily mean like, Oh, I’m fully recovered, it means I’m still kind of in the tail end of that process. And my body still is devoting a lot of energy towards recovery. And it hasn’t kind of come back to my baseline yet. So it can tell us both things, but it’s not necessarily as quite as simple as high as always good and low as always bad. the standpoint of, you know, if it’s really high, it’s telling you something very similar to if it’s very low, it’s just a different point in that process. So that makes sense.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Yes, yeah. And, and I guess, so to be to be transparent. You know, I first came across your work roundabout in December, and I went and bought myself a Morpheus. And, yeah, it’s having that rolling 10 day average, which, then you can then see where you’re at those

 

Joel Jamieson 

cycles, right.

 

Bryn Edwards 

And it also, it also made me change my mindset in terms of this isn’t just a turn up, go to the gym, once time event, this, this is now an overall, you know, sort of longitudinal game that I’m playing. Where, because I couldn’t understand why To start with, you know, I could understand where my score was low, that I was, you know, still recovering, but I couldn’t understand where it was high up yet why I was getting poor scores. So that took a bit of research and to understand that.

 

Joel Jamieson 

Yeah, that’s, that’s the most common thing I think people misinterpret and a lot of the apps out there, unfortunately, have reinforced that they Oh, your HRV is high, great job. Well, you know, it’s not always that simple. I mean, it just tells you that you are at very different points in the recovery process. And I will say to the the better shape you’re in, the higher your level of fitness, and the more you’re exposed to a particular type of event or stress, the faster that process happens, meaning, you know, maybe the first few times you do a workout A new workout, a new programme, your sore the next day you’re tired, your HRV is down. But very quickly that changes and all of a sudden, the next day you’re up, you’re higher, because the body basically is just dealing with it’s, it’s sped the whole process up. So you’re recovering a lot faster. And that in that same 24 hour period, rather than being down, now all sudden, you’re high, it’s just basically showing you the body is adapting, because it’s recovering much quicker before it might have taken 48 hours to get there. And maybe now it’s only taking 24. So you’re just seeing this whole process condensed. So, you know, again, you see this with people a higher level of fitness in general, you see this with just more exposure to a new programme, like you should actually see all things being equal an increase the next day once you’ve been exposed to something.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Yes. So given the fact that we’re now looking at an average, rather than fixating on a daily score, because it’s almost, yeah, where’s my average? And where am I against? Nope. And I’ve, like I said, I, I found this quite fascinating, when some days, I’d wake up from a score scores really quite low. Yeah, I felt all right. And then I go to the ocean for a swim. And within sort of two or 300 metres, I’m like, I am shattered. Right, but then when I started to get in, I was shattered, oh, just got out and walked back to the hut. Given the fact we’re now looking at where our averages what are the what are the I mean, obviously, you know, people, you know, they have their own sports, their own pursuits around training programmes, but what are the sort of things that we can do to over time start to increase our average? Because obviously, that would be the overall aim. Is that correct?

 

Joel Jamieson 

Yeah. So again, we can you look at HIV from two perspective, you look at kind of that daily swing up and down relative to your average. And you look and like you said, What is my actual average? Those are two different things. Before we go into that second question. Let me just make one point. It’s also I would say, the second thing people tend to intuitively think is that their performance is going to always line up perfectly with your HRV. That’s that’s not really the case. All right. So if we’re, again, considering the cycle of stress recovery, a single period is not going to drive performance, meaning if my recovery score is lower today, but it was, you know, fine, last couple of days, you know, just because it’s it’s lower or higher today does not mean like, also, I’m going to match if you perform if that is that simple. I would look to other Morpheus database of a pro sport athletes, and I’d be a betting man, I’d make a million dollars, but I can predict who’s going to perform well. But that’s just it’s the body’s not quite that simple, right? Yet, there’s multiple things going on. We can’t, we can’t predict performance or predict injuries from a single measurement. Like, I wish we could do that and make the world a lot easier. Yeah. But yeah, make that bigger. But that’s just not the reality, I would say a better way. And this is kind of the way we I tried to help people understand HIV is use. So rather than thinking about HIV as a prediction of how well you’re going to perform, or how much you can lift, or how likely are you injured, think of it more as a gauge of how long it’s gonna take you to recover from this workout. And what I mean by that is, let’s say I have a really high intensity, high volume, smash myself into the ground workout planned, if I wake up, and HRV tells me that my recovery is low, it’s going to take me a lot longer to recover from that workout. But if my recovery is higher, because I’m starting from a debt to begin with that, so it’s so you want to think about is how much energy reserves kind of do I have available to adapt to this workout. And if I’m starting from a low point in recovery, well, then my reserves already depleted. So I don’t have much energy to further go towards recovery from this next workout. So it’s just going to take me a whole lot longer to recover from my workout, if I’m starting to low point of recovery versus a high point of recovery. And again, if we understand the point should be trained, recover, repeat, that’s kind of my monster, there’s train recover. Repeat that, you know, we don’t want to. Yeah, exactly. We don’t want to train your pjp we want to train, recover, repeat. So it’s very valuable for us to gauge how long it’s likely going to take us. And that’s why it’s it’s not that doesn’t mean you couldn’t do high intensity work. If your cover is low, it just means it’s going to take you a lot longer to recover from it, if you choose to do that. And you should be aware of that. So that’s kind of the way I tend to frame HIV. And the reason I think that’s important is because I’ve heard multiple multiple times from different coaches. Well, I really think HIV is great, but I’m worried that my athletes will psychologically fall apart if they see a low recovery score for a day, or I’m worried that they’re going to be concerned about injury, if they’re like, again, if it was that simple, you know, if you could coach by numbers, and that was the way the body was predictable, you know, we’d be living in a different world. And again, I’d be a lot richer, and I wouldn’t have this conversation. But it’s just it just isn’t that simple. We’re not really predicting performance or injury, we’re predicting recovery times is a better way to look at it. So I just think it’s important framing for people to not get stressed out because their recovery scores x or y or z. It’s not about like, Oh, am I Recovery scores low, I’m going to go blow it out tomorrow today, if I go blow my hamstring off the bone, if I go sprint like no, you just are gonna take a lot longer to recover from that if you do it. And the caveat would be if you do that over and over again, then then yes, yes, you are more likely to get injured. You know, if you were to do that every, you know, if you were constantly in a low recovery state and costly doing high loading, you will see your averages, you know, tanking, usually, and you would see all kinds of problems premeditate those injuries? So I just think, again, it’s, it’s human nature to want to simplify into the very easiest terms to understand. And it’s, it’s really easy to think, oh, recovery scores, you know, immediately going to predict my performance. Sometimes it correlates really well. Sometimes it doesn’t, it’s not always quite that simple. But yeah, that’s a long winded answer to get Diyarbakir your second point, yeah, the the goal, you know, for most people who who want to have endurance and life expectancy and prevent cardiovascular disease should be to see an increased HRV over time up to, you know, a higher level. That the challenges again, because each system is using its own standards, I can’t tell you what that level is. For other systems, I can tell with Morpheus, you know, most people for health and wellness bed want to get in the 80s. You know, and scoring the 80s is pretty predictive of longer lifespan and less risk for cardiovascular disease, it’s a good overall level for you to recover quickly from from most types of stress, it’s a it’s a stress resiliency number. As much as anything else. If you get your average in the 80s. On the Morpheus system, at least, you’ll be in a much better position if your HRV averages down in the 60s or or low 70s, for example. Now, that said, there are of course, sport differences, because the biggest, the single biggest thing that will correlate HRV average would be aerobic fitness, for multiple reasons. If we simply step back, we think about recovery what energy system drives recovery? Yeah, it’s it’s not the anaerobic systems. Now it’s the aerobic system, right. So the aerobic system is driving recovery, because it’s what drives most of the energy you ever produced. So a stronger, more robust, more efficient aerobic system can drive more energy into the recovery side of things more effectively. So that’s why endurance athletes are going to have higher levels of HRV, then strength and power athletes. So again, the caveat to the higher is better, is that it depends on your sport. So somebody who’s trained to break a world record in powerlifting, or Olympic weightlifter or 100 metre sprint, is certainly not going to want to have the same average HRV as somebody who’s swimming across the ocean, for example, because, you know, you’re swimming for five or six hours and they’re sprinting for, you know, 10 seconds, or lifting the weight for less than that. So the the average you’re looking for will depend upon your overall goal. But I would still say just from a general health wellness standpoint, you know, athletics aside, you know, I’m more peacefully said 80s is a good number to strive for, for most people just aren’t, you know, that our compete for sport is want to be healthy and live longer and, you know, have a general good disposition of health as a progressive life.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Give it given, like you said there that this becomes an indicator for, you know, longevity and heart health and things like that. And, and given the fact that we are looking at the, you know, we’re taking more of a longitudinal Look, do you find that when working with clients, there’s a greater receptivity with age?

 

Joel Jamieson 

Yeah, absolutely. You just met?

 

Bryn Edwards 

I’m 40. I’m 46. So, you know, this stuff fascinates me,

 

 

because now Yeah, absolutely.

 

 

I didn’t have when I was 20.

 

Joel Jamieson 

Yeah, I think it is, it’s human nature, when you’re, when you’re really young, you want to look your best. And at some point, you probably want to perform at a high level and something and then surely, you just want to stay alive and not not fall apart in the process. It’s just kind of how it goes. So that, you know, I’m 41 now, and I can tell you, my, my focus, you know, is totally shifted, as I’ve I’ve aged personally, you know, I don’t want to have nagging injuries, I want to look and feel as young as I can. And I want to avoid the cardiovascular disease, stroke and things that I’ve seen, probably my family and you know, I’d much, much rather trade that than a little extra performance in, you know, in anything. So I think our priority shifts, as we get closer towards that midpoint, or endpoints are live, you know, we could care less how much we can lift as long as we’re healthy and you know, feeling good and staying alive and avoiding things because it doesn’t take long for you to see people you know, and care about have a stroke or have cardiovascular disease or have diabetes or have something that you don’t want to get. And you see that your priorities, you know, rightfully so shifted to you know, I don’t care about having giant arms as long as I can stay healthy and avoid those things.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Hmm. You You also mentioned earlier, just that it is something else because I’d like to come sort of a bit out of the the training focus and you were talking about stress resilience, and is it possible with this to start to see sort of the life stress load in here as well?

 

Joel Jamieson 

Yeah, I mean, like to be, to be honest, that’s kind of the first thing I noticed. Or it is the first thing I noticed when I started looking HIV back, you know, Almost 20 years ago now, probably probably actually about 20 years ago. You know, I was a coach, a young coach. And, of course, under the assumption that the end all be all of someone’s stress was going to be my workout. And I quickly found out that was not the case, as I was treating everybody from NFL players to the cheerleaders did Microsoft executives to stay at home mums and dads and you’ve quickly realised, I quickly realised how how much everything else mattered, their their sleep levels, their their mental stress levels, some work, their nutrition, their supplementation, their caffeine intake, just their genetics, I mean, all of those things, were driving their recovery on such a level that I had, could have never foreseen or guessed until I saw it. And you know, we saw just kind of give a good example, I we trained a bunch of college soccer teams and had a bunch of data on them. And we would see that the finals week and their college was more stressful than in playoffs, you would not, you would not think that right? You would think oh, playoffs have got to be the most stressful physical and mental time of the year. But it wasn’t it was the finals week where they were staying up to three, four nights without little sleep. And when there was poor sleep, and they’re probably not eating particularly well. And mentally stressed and taking their test. That was a greater cumulative stress of them, then two or three soccer matches, and then weekends that were, you know, high importance. And so yeah, you see very quickly that you’re getting the workout is one piece, but it’s it’s the other 23 hours a day that really drive so much what we see. And again, I think that’s the other value of HRV is showing that to people that you know, everything you do matters, not just the the time in the gym, but everything else in between those sessions is what’s what’s ultimate responsible for so much.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Because I guess, as we know, if if you’re in a perpetual state of stress, then you’re perpetually switching on that sympathetic note.

 

Joel Jamieson 

That’s exactly what it comes down to. It’s it’s, it’s just come down to the fact that,

 

Bryn Edwards 

yes, I guess it’s sort of almost overriding the body’s natural system to want to recover from the day by mentally keeping that switch switched on.

 

Joel Jamieson 

Yeah, I mean, when it comes down to is people don’t understand this. Well, they need to, but your body’s got a limitation in how much energy it can produce. So our metabolism keeps us alive, obviously, its job is to take the food we eat and turn it into energy we can use. But that’s that’s in itself takes time and takes energy to even do that. So there’s this thing called the metabolic ceiling. And the metabolic ceiling basically says your body can produce roughly about two and a half times your your basic metabolic rate or the minimum amount of calories you need to day survive, on average over a longer period of time. So let’s say my body takes just as an example, easy one, let’s say by takes 1000 calories a day to just stay alive. Yeah, and it’s going to take 2500 calories a day is basically about the maximum my body can produce over the long run. So what happens when you exceed that is I pull energy away from everything else, you know, pulling away from recovery, I pull energy away from reproductive hormones, I pull energy away from immune function I produce, I pull energy away from all the things that I need to be healthy and to live longer and to be more fit. So again, it’s robbing Peter to pay Paul, if I’m always mentally stressed, and I’m not getting the sleep I need and I’m not supporting myself in nutrition. And what suffers is, first and foremost, my fitness levels. And secondly, equally important is my health itself. And you know, everyone’s kind of gone through those periods of mental stress, what happens, you lose your sex drive, your appetite probably changes, your fatigue, energy levels, change, those are all those are all happening because of the mental stress. And you know, those are real real effects from the physiological perspective. So

 

Bryn Edwards 

but I guess, one of my other questions is from another perspective, is that, you know, because mental health, particularly in Western Australia is starting to become more talked about conversation, granted, is to go a long way to go. But so often it’s, you know, we, the stock standard advice includes made sure you’re getting at least 30 minutes of exercise a day. So where where do you see that where stress can impact an almost lower HRV score? If we have a good solid HRV score, let’s just say ran about that at through Morpheus. Does that standards in better stead to face the, you know, the stresses and strains of life? Because one of the things that turned up a lot in conversations I’ve had from lots of different perspectives here on the podcast is the role of the nervous system. And what I’m starting to see and feel is that is that when faced with you know, volatile, uncertain, complex and ambiguous situations, that quite often the role of whether we can stay in it and see possibility and probability and make better decisions often is a function of whether we’ve switched off into that fight or flight or managed to stay open. Do you see what I mean?

 

Joel Jamieson 

Yeah, there’s there’s multiple things going on there. But the short answer to the question is, you know, does does have does higher HRV make us more resilient to stress of life? Absolutely. I mean, that’s, that’s fundamentally a big piece of why people hate with higher HRV are likely to live longer, because they’re likely to avoid the stress related diseases of cardiovascular disease and diabetes, they’re more stress resilient for a reason, because their, their parasympathetic system is able to mitigate the sympathetic stress response. And they’re better at shutting that sympathetic system off with a stronger parasympathetic response. That’s, that’s stage one or one of the most important things. But just as importantly, to your point, people with higher HIV, they’ve been shown, like, people have addiction to cigarettes and people who make food choices. The people who have higher HRV, are better able to resist temptation from either, you know, they basically look at cigarettes, people who are addicted to cigarettes, if you get into quit smoking, and then you put a pack of cigarettes in front of them, that people hire HIV or have a better likelihood of resisting the temptation to keep basically just to re smoke again, or to take the poor choice of making the bad decision. And same thing with diet if you give people a carrots or a cookie, and you ask them which one they want to eat the people higher HIV are more likely to to eat the carrot instead of the cookie. It’s it’s a, it comes back to we have we have different pathways to make decision. And there’s a whole other discussion we get into. But you have the simplest example or simplest way to think about is you have these two systems. One is a very quick decision making process in nature rustics they system? Yeah, I’d be wanting to eat like Donald comments book, Thinking Fast and Slow covers a lot of this. There’s a lot of stuff neuro economics. But yeah, the principal thing is we have a system that relies more on instincts and impulse. And we have a system that’s more complicated relies more on complex decision making. And it has to first override that that system that wants to just kind of make impulsive decisions. And that system is heavily depend on energy. And as that systems, users get depleted, and you overuse it, you you lose some of that self restraint. And so people higher HRV tend to have greater self restraint, greater self control, in addition to the greater recovery. So you’re, you’re stressed resilient, I would say on multiple levels, just a physiological stress resilience is there and also a decision making stress resilience is also there. So you definitely see a lot of benefits. And I don’t know about you, but I’ve seen, I would say, just comparing broad personality types. And again, this is this is stereotyping, but it is, yeah, I think what I’ve seen across my career is efficient. Yeah, I mean, strength and power athletes tend to be very different types of people than endurance athletes. Yeah. And I don’t want to again, stereotype but I can do this, because I’ve been in shape, 20 years, strength and power athletes in the far end to strength and power, they don’t live as long and they generally speaking, don’t take care of themselves, I would say as well, they’re less organised, they tend to have very different lifestyles, then the endurance athletes, you know, who tend to be more very cyclical nature, very organised in nature, they tend to have better self control. And as a whole, they tend to be more executive level thinking, like, again, this was just broad stereotypes that everyone would fall into that category. But you know, I’ve worked with a lot of people over the years, and these are just some observations I’ve seen. And I think it’s just kind of a breakdown of how different people are hardwired to, to do different things and how it comes back to the physiology that underlies those those drives. Hmm.

 

Bryn Edwards 

So obviously, we are having delineated the fact that, you know, we use the sympathetic nervous and the parasympathetic nervous system, and we’re very now acutely aware of the practices to activate the sympathetic nervous system, which is essentially as you know, going out and training, etc, etc. What are some of the practices we can look at to engage more with our parasympathetic nervous system, because it strikes me and I sort of, I found myself since taking this more seriously, for myself, I’ve noticed my calm levels and energy levels just come down. And yet, I have a fiance who’s, you know, is coming off the path of Smash, smash, smash, smash, smash. And I found myself saying to her, you know, if you could develop a relaxation practice to the same level that you have, yes, smash yourself practice. Yep, exactly. Be an awesome athlete. Yep. Yeah,

 

Joel Jamieson 

I mean, it’s, that’s really what it comes down to it comes down to, you know, everyone’s gonna have different things that work for them. But I actually like to use the workout itself as a training tool for that, because the workout is obviously going to be stressful. And so one of the things I always focused on is using heart rate as a tool for that. So as I’m training, you know, there certainly you want to draw your heart rate up, and that’s part of the intensity you need to train but treat the rest period after those times as a chance to develop that parasympathetic skill set and that parasympathetic function, so focusing on recovering in between sets and focusing on bringing heart rate down at the end of the workout and focusing on the the time in between working organ sets is a chance to focus on the recovery, and it’s both a Cognitive thing of just being able to relax mentally. And it is a physiological thing. And the easiest thing is breathing. You know, as you extend that, you know, exhalation process, you are extending that parasympathetic function, turn on and off. And that’s why breathing, breathing has gotten a lot more coverage lately, I’d say a lot of areas, there’s, there’s benefits to focusing on that I think it’s valuable. And then I would say, you know, once you can do that, well, in a high intensity workout, it’s easier to do that in your daily life. And then you can, you can develop little routines of you know, when you sit and fight, sit there for five minutes and go through some just mental relaxation drills, or maybe listen to music that you find relaxing, or, you know, whatever the case may be, if you that you find a way to mentally, you know, turn that dial down in bed is super valuable for people and I’ve seen, you know, five minutes a day can actually increase your HRV fairly nosily for the for the people that have a very hard time shutting off. Yeah, once they can learn how to do that it can make a really big difference in their in their HRV. And their overall fitness levels. Awesome.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Just a slightly more personal question, how is it for, you know, armed with all this information? How is it for Joel looking out into the world on an everyday basis when you see you obviously interact with Okay, top end athletes, but also, you know, like you said, Mom, and dads and stuff like that, and you see them making their gains and how that exponentially changes their life. And yet, you know, we all step out of work or step out of the gym, and then you have to encounter people who don’t do that. How, how does that weigh on? Joel, when you you can see these positive ways forwards and people taking it and then others not yet that still impacts your life as well.

 

Joel Jamieson 

Do you get what I’m getting? Yeah, I mean, that’s a that’s a good question. It’s It’s a hard question. I said, my, I won’t go too far in my family history for bore you guys. But you know, my mom had a stroke. 1012 years ago, my dad passed away after triple bypass in his early 60s, my both my grandpa’s passed away in their early 60s. And so you get in you, you see people that are close to you die very young, or have serious health issues are very young ages. And, you know, I wasn’t really in much of a position to influence those things, because they happened a long time ago, for the most part. But yeah, it’s definitely hard to see people making decisions that you know, are probably not the most healthy decisions for themselves, whether it’s your family or friends, or just, you know, strangers you can come across in life, you know, and I’ve always just tried to educate as much as I possibly can push people in direction that I, you know, the things need to go, but you kind of at some point, you just have to realise people’s decisions are their own, and you can lead a horse to water, so to speak, but you can’t force him to drink. So I think, you know, my my role and my mission is to is to provide that education to give people the knowledge, but I think knowledge is where it starts, if you don’t understand how important these things are, if you’re not measuring them, if you don’t have any way of seeing them, and then you’re much less likely to change those decisions and behaviours. And so I’m focused on just that knowledge piece. And that’s, you know, really kind of what I’ve always focused on. And right now I’m working on the Morpheus coaching app, which we’ve been we haven’t talked about yet. But I really think the biggest way to impact most people is to give this power to coaches and trainers and physical therapists and these people that have access to, you know, help people make better decisions. And right now, the funny thing is, you do have an Apple Watch, or you have a Fitbit or you have anything, and you have a coach that coaches know what the data says, Yeah, they can’t see it, it’s stuck on your phone and your or your your watch. And so the Morpheus coaching app, I’ve been working hard for a year and a half, I’m gonna change that. And we’re gonna, we’re gonna give all the data that have that people have in their wearables, we’re going to give that to coaches in a meaningful way, we’re going to facilitate, I think coaching in a new direction, or much better direction where coaches can start to see the lifestyle influences, they can start to help people make better decisions, they can start to point people in the right direction. So I think we have to get this information to coaches, the trainers and the therapists, the people that interact with, you know, the average person daily basis and help facilitate those conversations. And that’s how we’re gonna have a much bigger impact than, than anything else.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Hmm. So yeah, I mean, you want to tell me just a bit more about that the Morpheus app, because like you said, I found it impressive in the way that most apps are very much focused on the singular device. Whereas this seems to be all of a sudden it’s pulling in, you know, like the steps from the phone and things from here and sleep information.

 

Joel Jamieson 

Yeah, and the biggest thing is I was wanting to create something that was going to give the most people the most information. And so for steps and sleep and activity, that’s where stuff people have a lot of wearables, you know, like said from Fitbit to Apple watches, and rather than force people to only use Morpheus and Morpheus devices, I wanted to make sure we could use as many devices as possible for that. So as you mentioned, we take sleep, we take activity, we take steps, calories, even workout data from a variety of devices out there and really the only one that we require you to have the Morpheus device for is the HIV piece because They mentioned, you know, there’s just no way standardised that we could we couldn’t use 10 different devices and get a good baseline of HIV numbers. So for HIV, we require the Morpheus device for everything else, we’re extremely open and flexible. And then we use all that information to give people the recovery scores, we take some of the the analysis out of it, you don’t have to spend too much time worrying about what is HIV up or down mean, the recovery score does a lot of that work for you. And then like I said, we’re going to take all that information and share it with coaches in meaningful ways. So if I’m a coach, and I’ve got 2030 people, I want to see that lifestyle data, I want to see how much someone’s sleep is they’ve been getting, I want to see what their activity levels were, I want to see if they did workouts when they weren’t with me, I want to have access to all that. And that’s where the Morpheus coaching platform is going to do. Because like I said, right now, I think the biggest problem in fitness and coaching is is 90% of it is just black box. I mean, I see you in the gym, I know what you did in the gym, and then you leave and you might come back a few days later next week. And I have no idea what you did in between, you could have had the best sleep in the world and and fully recovered. But you could smash yourself in the ground with extra workouts and drink yourself to oblivion every night. I don’t know. You know, as a coach, as a coach, I’m, I’m, you know, trying to give you the best workouts possible. But you know, if I have no idea what you did or where your recovery is, or anything else, I just guess, or I just make assumptions. And most of those are poor choices. So I think we have to kind of bring coaching now the Dark Ages, where we’re just thinking of the workout as this isolated thing and understand that the workout is just part of the actual daily life and the daily story that the data can tell us. And so that’s where I think we need to go, that’s what I’m focused on with the Morpheus system. So that’s why I’m really excited to get that out there. Because I said it’s been a year and a half of work. But I’m extremely happy with how it’s come together and the results we’ve seen from the initial people using it. It’s been really exciting. So that’s my next big project. And Alexei we’re I think we have a lot bigger impact on the industry then than ever could by myself.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Yeah, I suppose from a coaching point of view, you know, what, you know, what’s going to turn up? Rather than? Okay, I’ve got this Yeah, I suppose you know, you’ve got this programme, which you’ve written, which have cognitively engaged with that, then you know, there’s always gonna be a time when you know, an athlete or someone turns up in their life, I can tell I’ve had a day.

 

Joel Jamieson 

I think I mean, yeah, it happens a lot, honestly. And they said that the more I started using HRV, from early part of my career, the more I saw that, you know, all the planning in the world was well and good. But nine, nine times out of 10, there was something I was going to change, I mean, not 910, but a good percentage of the time, you know, my plans weren’t, weren’t quite realised, because I saw the person had done to themselves or where the recovery was relative to where I expected it to be. And you learn that coaching is an art form, because you have to make a lot of decisions. But it’s actually a science, it’s only art because you don’t have the information. But once you have the information, it becomes a lot easier to make better decisions, it’s like if we get it’s like trying to buy stocks, if you only sell a stock price, once a month, I mean, you really wouldn’t be able to see what what the hell is doing. But if you saw the stock price every day or every hour, now you can make a lot smarter investments, it’s the same thing.

 

Bryn Edwards 

And you can then both coach people more dynamically.

 

Joel Jamieson 

Exactly. And I think it adds a layer of accountability, I think people in general are likely to make better decisions about sleep and be more mindful of their stress levels and be more mindful of other workouts and, you know, doing the right things in their days off. If they know someone’s watching, and someone’s attention to their data, you know, you might stop that Netflix series and go to sleep, if you know someone’s gonna see it the next day or your sleep was so, you know, I think we can add a bit of accountability there too, for people to ultimately I think that’s the big thing is, if you’re going to be successful in fitness, a coach can help guide you there and again, goes back to your question, but you’re the one leading the life, you know, you have to make the decisions, you know, I can’t eat the foods for you, I can’t go to bed for you, I can’t do any of those things. I can tell you what you need to do and help point you in the right direction. But people have to be accountable for their own actions. And I think that’s part of what helps with as well.

 

Bryn Edwards 

And I suppose Yeah, that’s the big mental tipping point of whether you’re going to go from one place to another or not. Yeah, I

 

Joel Jamieson 

mean, look, I don’t want to discount the role of coaching, coaching, hugely important. Yeah, I can help people make those decisions. But at the end of day, again, if you’re going from gym, to gym, to gym, or coach Coach to coach and still not seeing the results, you probably need to look in the mirror for the problem, you know that it’s there may be something there that you need to fix that the workouts not the problem, you know, you might be so I think that people again, the role of coach is hugely valuable and the right coach can make a vast difference in your life. But ultimately, you have to be willing to to make the changes that you need to make outside the gym as well. And the coach is just one part of that. Yeah,

 

Bryn Edwards 

yeah. So the last question I ask all my guests, and it’s hypothetical one, which I enjoy the answer to is, if I could just chill everyone out for like five to 10 minutes and just upload one question into the collective consciousness so everyone just considered it for themselves. What would that be?

 

Joel Jamieson 

What’s the one question everyone can share for themselves? Yep. Hmm,

 

 

that’s a good question.

 

Joel Jamieson 

Give me What’s your What’s your answer? And then I’ll give you mine about that. Oh, yeah. I love how you’re stalling for time. You might think here.

 

 

Yeah.

 

Joel Jamieson 

You gotta give me one. You gotta give me your answer. Well,

 

Bryn Edwards 

we’ve had a number of really good questions out here. But what would mine be? Christ? No one’s asked me. Yeah.

 

Joel Jamieson 

Well, so you’d like to ask you anything. So here you go.

 

 

I did. I did.

 

Bryn Edwards 

I did. So mine would be. mind right now would be? What is pulling you and why?

 

Joel Jamieson 

It’s pulling you.

 

 

Yeah.

 

Joel Jamieson 

Why is that your question?

 

Bryn Edwards 

And because i think i when i say pulling it, that’s more of an embodied answer than a, what do I think I need to do? It’s what is pulling you. And I think more often than not,

 

 

we

 

Bryn Edwards 

cognitively engage with things. And actually, this is, this is very interesting, in in light of what we’re talking about, because I i’ve, as I said before the call back a few years back, I worked my way up to swimming, that 20 kilometre channel to run this. And I was back in 2016. And I haven’t set myself a goal of that nature for a while. And one of the things I found, when I did that, in 2016, was it was a very, it was a very cognitive journey. And I wasn’t entirely sure how connected I was to my body at times, there were moments when I was in those moments when I wasn’t. And sometimes I see a lot of friends who do triathalon, particularly half Iron Man’s an Iron Man’s, and it just becomes this mental. I’m going to do this, and then we’ll worry about the condition of the body later. And if I’m going to, and I’m at this point now, where if I’m going to engage in setting myself another goal, whether that’s swim to the channel, again, or whatever, I want to do it in a more embodied fashion. So that it, I am pulled towards that. And so what is pulling me it’s more that engaging with my body? And what is my body pulling me towards rather than my busy brain taking me in a place that’s constantly switched on? And in that sympathetic nervous system? Does that make sense?

 

Joel Jamieson 

Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I think the thing I would say, that I focus a lot on, I think people need to think about is, who do you want to be tomorrow? And what do you have to do today to get there. And what I mean by that is, I think we tend to be very short sighted, as you mentioned. And that’s just how we’re hardwired we tend to think about the outcome. And we tend to think in very, very short outcomes. But we tend to forget is it’s the decisions we make today that actually dictate five years from now 10 years from now 20 years from now, where we’re actually going to be and so it’s more about thinking through where am I trying to actually start? What’s the long term goal? And then it becomes a question of, what do I have to do each and every day to get to that long term vision of where I want to be. So I think we kind of have to override our own biology in a sense to get there because again, we’re hardwired for survival, immediate, short term, and we’re not necessarily as good at making sacrifices in the short term in the name of the long term. So I would just say, you know, who do you want to be tomorrow? And what’s it gonna take today to get you there is a good way to look at it.

 

Bryn Edwards 

Love it, love it. Joe, it’s been an awesome conversation. I’ve really enjoyed

 

 

it, appreciate it.

 

Bryn Edwards 

There’s been a lot of information but I’ve really enjoyed how you’ve articulated it. It’s very accessible very Yeah, I think it’s going to dispel a lot of myths certainly in my circles, what actually hrvs about so people want to reach out and find out more about Morpheus and things like that where can they find that sure

 

Joel Jamieson 

just just my website a weeks out which is the number eight then weeks out calm so you can you can find more Morpheus there. Matthew just released a new course called recovery to win which which goes over a lot of these different lifestyle packs we’ve talked about and I break it down in different categories. So if you want to learn how to kind of optimise the the 23 hours of that outside the day the recovery win course is about that and then as the Morpheus coaching system becomes available, they can find everything out also at train with Morpheus calm, which is where the the Morpheus side of things is, but a week’s app.com is my main homepage. They can find everything pretty much through there.

 

 

Awesome.

 

 

Joe,

 

Bryn Edwards 

thank you so much for your time.

 

Joel Jamieson 

Yeah, no problem. appreciate you having me on. I’m sure we’ll watch it again some time indeed.

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